Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

@Caranconnor
You were lucky then because I know my cousins didn’t have puzzles etc or LEGO and one has grown up to be an electrician so he seems to have got the hang of physics. I didn’t have a lot of things, few barbie dolls. Maybe the outcomes for him would have been improved with a sure start centre and access to all those lovely toys. But he didn’t need intervention.

@inliverpool Then I am really surprised. I grew up in a very poor working class area. We played out and did not have afterschool activities beyond the uniformed groups. But we did all have toys. Not the masses kids have today, but enough.
So I had a Sindy, a Tiny Tears, pram, dolls house, books, jigsaws, lego, board games, bike, etc. Yes my bike was second-hand, and lego were basic lego sets rather than the fancy ones you buy now, but it all did the job.

@caranconnor that doesn’t sound very poor to me.

My grandparents paid for a lot, brownies uniform etc for me but nobody took us so that dwindled quickly and once access was stopped my younger sister missed out on all that.

As I say I don’t think we should go backwards but I do think University educated SW are immediately going to be judging situations they literally cannot comprehend. We’ve been on the bones of our arse as a family but my children have never experienced just a handful of Christmas presents, food being restricted due to finance, a year without a holiday etc

@inliverpool We didn't have holidays as young kids at all. And yes my family were very poor like the families around me. But my family were the equivalent these days of young very poor teenage mums that make sure their kids are very well dressed and have nice toys.

Like most kids I grew up around at Christmas you got one main present, then a few other smaller ones. There was also a lot of passing on of toys and kids to younger family members or neighbours once you had outgrown them. And the better off families at school, their kids had less toys.

I always had enough to eat, but I also got free school dinners that were also provided during summer holidays. A main and a pudding every day. And kids were not as fat then, so we did eat less food generally.

@Inliverpool1 The SW are trained.
Where I do agree with you is that I think the life experience side that used to be demanded for SW should still be in place.

Life experience of what? They would most likely have kids and be able to meet their needs so it's a completely moot point. My gynaecologist is fab at his job he just doesn't happen to be in possession of a vagina

If you have been to school and then university and that is all, that would not have been accepted in the past as enough to be a SW. There was a requirement for more experience of life. And yes I remember some at the time when it was abolished as a requirement arguing the same about technical based skills that a medic has. I think you are wrong, but it changed a long time ago and is not going to change back.

If you have been to school and then university and that is all
To add if have been to private school or a grammar school, brought up in a middle class area, had a sheltered life, it may effect your judgement based on your life experience.
I get social workers are there to protect DC though their chilling approach of guilty until you prove otherwise doesn't help a family.
It is well known SS use removal rather than help the existing family.
The risk of future emotional abuse being a big one, how much emotional distress does removal cause.
Yes it is necessary for many DC though the rules regulations and lack of money have made family support take a back seat.

Social workers in training do have to do work with families during their training...it's very practice based. They don't just get a degree in sociology and off they go taking cases to PLO...

I know they have to do placements, they always did.

Yes on dispatch investigres6 it shows a community worker under cover being expected to oversee SW. This man was dealing with serious cases of sexual abuse with a teenage girl, social workers admitted they don't get to support families, they are to busy filling their case files.
Within a few weeks be was over loaded with SW caseloads, again he was not a social worker, he was employed as a community worker, the training wasn't provided for him or the junior SW's.
It was an eye opener. One SW said she didn't like leaving the office and enjoyed the indoor admin. She had a caseload too.

And in the flip side of this you also get SW’s trained in otter countries where the bar of child protection is so low it’s pitiful.
I don’t have the answers but it’s currently not fit for purpose.

Our foster child is on their 5th social worker this year. It’s just as well our situation is stable and the child is happy with us.
I think they are that desperate for SW they are not as thorough as they should be.
Our child bonds better with women, 3 of the sw have been men.
We are in a different authority from where our child is based, one of the sw didn’t drive. It would have taken well over an hour to visit using public transport.

I think it's pretty disgraceful the way this thread has been hijacked and become a debate about social services.

OP, I hope that you are ok and some of the suggestions made have helped you focus on what you need to do to get your children back.

I'm struggling to see how a SW needs to have children to be a good social worker. Would you say that to midwives? A midwife can't possibly good at his/her job if they haven't had children or went through childbirth. That instantly removes most new graduates, men, women who can't have children, women who used a surrogate, women in same-sex relationships, the list goes on...

A good social worker is someone who's genuinely interested in helping people, who can remain objective, who has been trained properly and put effort into attaining a good degree and experience. Yes, there will be shit social workers. But similarly, there's plenty (and I guarantee, more) really shit people who don't deserve to have kids.

I'd much rather SW are harsher than they need to be, and a lot of changes are made before a child is returned, than them being too lax and a child is neglected, seriously hurt, or even worse. There was a terrible case in Northern Ireland recently- a poor 5 week old baby was injured and left blind with multiple injuries. His siblings were also abused. None of them were removed.

None of us know whether OP's children were removed because of a spiteful HV/SS employee, or for genuine reason. None of us know how they've treated her and the lack of support they've given. Similarly, none of us know how she has treated them.

But blaming SS on the whole is not the answer. It has saved many children's lives and there will be so many people who will be thankful they were removed from their awful home lives. Similarly, there will be many parents who were glad their kids were temporarily removed because it enabled them to get support and be better parents in the long term.

I hope your doing okay Op, I’m a little worried about you. If you pop back on just drop a message so we all know your okay x

There will be many kids who hate social services for interfering in their home lives too.

@SeaOfDespair I hope you're doing ok?

Sorry, I started becoming very depressed whilst reading the thread. Sometimes it feels pointless and that I won't get them back. I've made a few adjustments to the flat. The contact is really getting me down, because I don't feel they're being looked after properly.

@SeaOfDespair

this is one of the saddest threads I have read on MN as I actually think you sound like a lovely Mum but very misunderstood by SS. How did you get on with getting an advocate to help you? I would make this a priority, you need someone in real life that can vouch for you and that will attend meetings with you so that they cannot just shrug their shoulders and give inadequate answers to your questions. Even if you have to pay for it you really need this help. All the best

A “few” adjustments to the flat is a step in the right direction - however you are still avoiding being specific about the state of your home, changes made & it’s becoming fairly obvious the house is a core reason why the children have been removed. Otherwise why not tell us “I’ve changed X, X & X” ? Your inability to be able to identify a comfy, cosy & safe home from the photos you posted of Pinterest houses indicates to me there may be a serious issue of either hoarding Situation or a barren house with a lack of things children require in it. At the start of the thread you spoke of state of the kitchen being an issue with SWs & food you are feeding them being an issue. Have you cleaned your fridge & the whole kitchen yet ? Nobody can help unless you say what you’ve changed!

if you want your children back then you are going to need to make more than a “few” changes & get some cleaning quotes in. This would be a step in the right direction - I feel this issue is beyond what you personally can fix & you need to get a professional cleaner’s quote - then post the quote Info here. That would give us a more realistic idea of what the issues with the house actually are from an outsider’s perspective.

I have a feeling you won’t get cleaners in or post a quote here. This thread is just to bash SWs.

OP sorry I haven't read the full thread - but have you asked the social worker if they are trained in working with parents with autism specifically? If not, I would recommend you do. I say this as a social worker. It has really helped understanding for a family in our service as we had someone from an autism service help bridge the communication gap. It helped the social worker understand that the parent focusing on small details was not being belligerent, but that it was due to their autism - and the worker helped the social worker get across the 'bigger picture' concerns.

Oh and to the other posters in the thread - to get onto any decent SW course, you have to evidence how you have understanding of real life. Whether it's personal experience, through work or volunteering. They removed the age restriction because age doesn't neccessarily correlate to experience (though I appreciate age brings other advantages) It's very common for people to do the degree because of situations in their family that piqued their interest. Off the top of my head, in my team that's because of - fleeing war/refugee, significantly disabled sibling & advocating for them, alcoholic parents, being adopted, being in the care system, eldest sibling caring for youngest in a large family, and experience of domestic violence. Just because SW are university educated and have good incomes when you meet them doesn't mean they have always had that lifestyle, or that everyone in their families do. It's also common for people to work in child protection before they have kids because unless you have family who can collect your kids at the drop of a hat, its impossible. It's not just about the working hours- I know many parents in other jobs who carry on doing work on a laptop after kids have gone to bed - it's that you're away from home. You can't walk out of a home visit (which unless it's a baby, is going to be booked 4pm ish as their kids are in school too) because you've got to go pick up yours. And any crisis that happens in the day you carry on dealing with until it's resolved - that can be finding a foster home at 9pm, or being at a hospital until the early hours. It's also much harder to be objective and accept different lifestyles and standards when you have your own, particularly if your kids are the same age as ones you're working with.
I will freely admit that as a SW if someone asked me I'd say id love an office day. That's not because I don't like working with families at all, that's because id see an office day as a rest, a chance of getting lunch, and a chance of getting some of what is swilling around my head down on paper. And chipping away at a mountain of a to do list! If I actually wanted an office based job id do something else, there's easier ways of making a living, people don't stay in the job if it's not for them.

@ObtuseTriangle no luck on the advocate front. I haven’t managed to find someone who can go to meetings or anything like that.

@Swimtobreathe yes and the answer is no. I’ve asked for someone that does, or even just someone else, but no.