Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

@mathanxiety This is what worried me about the method. I'll try your method. I usually ask her to stop and do a count down first, but the ignoring part does worry me. I was advised to do time outs and put her on the 'naughty chair'.

What is the best way to deal with the behaviour is she is throwing things or hitting? I usually hold her hand and look at her when I ask her to stop. This seems to wind her up, but I'm not sure whether it's because she's having a tantrum or because she doesn't always like people too close to her face (unless she's getting smushes). She had this toy that she used to like to kiss, unfortunately, she's gone now. I looked all over online to find one that looks like her. I paid a small fortune and it looked nothing like her in real life. Never mind. Sorry, back on the subject....

Sometimes she gets so wound up that nothing much seems to help, when she's covering her ears and in distress. Or puts her hands over her eyes and screams. She does this sometimes if a room is quite bright. So she'd react really badly to it. I usually deal with this one differently, I would give her a hug and hold her, so that she doesn't whack her head on the floor and hurt herself. Is this right?

Oh sorry and if she's been taking toys from another child (usually her sister) do I remove the toy from her, ask her to stop and say 'kind hands'? Is this right?

@caranconnor Sorry, I nearly missed your reply! Yes, I've had to practice my tone of voice to be more assertive and authoritative. I'm not a fan of Supernanny, but I saw a show online (I think it was aired on TV years ago) called 'Who Rules The Roost?'.

A lot of the problems seemed to based on the parents not being assertive enough and posing things as a question. So there was a child flinging bowls and food at her sister, her mum would say, "can you be kind to (your sister)?", rather than, "be kind to your sister". It didn't sound like much, but there is quite a lot of difference, isn't there? One is a demand, the other is a request. I realised that you've also got to show kids that you, as a parent, are in charge.

It's always best to hold and hug imo.

Getting down to her face level and asking her to stop the named behaviour are good. Eye contact is really important.

'Kind hands' is great, and you can suggest she waits for her turn.

You can ask her if she is feeling angry or frustrated, and explain to her that it's ok to feel those feelings, but it's not ok to hurt others or break toys when we are feeling that way.

Ask her if she would like to sit with you as she calms down, or if she would like to sit and look at a book or play with a doll until she is feeling better.

Distraction and your attention will often work well.

Watch out for signs that she is not coping well and try to maybe offer a drink or a little healthy snack (slices of apple or a small yogurt for instance) and then sit together and read a few little books. You may feel that you are rewarding bad behaviour, but mostly what children need when they are misbehaving/ having a moment is a restored sense of connection to you.

Sometimes little children begin to lose it if their blood sugar is low, if they are getting tired, overstimulated, or even if they are coming down with a cold (which you don't discover until a few days later).

Dear OP, my heart goes out to you.
Some of the posters on here seem to think this is a court trial and that they have the right to insist on answers from you!! You have shown EXTREME patience in light of their words and I was shaking my head in disbelief just before you said that you couldn't take anymore of it. Your reaction was quite normal and shared by me, and probably many others!! You've had the patience of a saint!!
As for all the crap about home decor, so long as your place is clean and presentable (and it sounds like it is), it won't matter. Please just keep trying to find someone who understands ASD to speak and listen for you.
Good luck.

You seem to be getting the idea of playing together but it does sound as if you have not engaged as much with the children previously. Also don't allow it to be your narrative alone, ask questions and pause for a response, even if there is nothing at first, so "Bear is going to walk to the shops, he walks through the park ..." what can he see? Who does he meet? What does he buy at the shop? Have other toys and items such as play food out. Eventually she may choose something to add in response or to put in shopping basket for example. Have you tried simple games such as matching picture pairs or memory games? Again you can have a conversation about the pictures as you find them.

Yes naming things she picks up is great. And the little songs are great as well.

The problem with constant talk and no pauses is it does not give a child space to respond. Research shows that even babies actually respond and can kind of have a conversation with their mothers. Their response is total babble, but they do respond.

I am going to contradict the advice upthread about avoiding time outs. I know everyone has different ideas about appropriate parenting methods. But if the Social Worker has advised you to use time out, I think you should. They are the ones with the power over you, not people on this thread.

I know supernanny gets a bad rap on here, but I think it is actually really good at explaining simple things parents get wrong, like the asking a question rather than telling that you mention. It might be worth watching more episodes. I think it gets rubbished as a programme on here because a lot of people who have had lovely parents don't realise that things that seem obvious to them are not obvious to those who have not been taught it themselves as kids.

Also I know lots of people look down on reality programmes, but it might be useful to watch ones about cleaning or feeding children to get tips. The families or situations they show on the TV may be worse than yours, but that often means the presenter gives really simple tips to the families about how to change things and how to keep it up.

@SeaOfDespair

I miss questions, sometimes there are too many to reply to and it's overwhelming. I didn't see Muna's question. The answer is yes.

Thank you answering. I was asking because I work in a profession that means I am often invited to these meetings and know how it goes.
If you attended these meetings then you worked collaboratively with the agencies. You would have had the chance to say "I don't understand what you want. That point is vague". If you didn't say anything at conference then you would have had chance after chance at core group meetings.

You can't now know why this happened if you were involved in the process and attended all the meetings. You just can't.

Have you received any updates? Dates on reviews? Will there be a court date?

Have you got some form of timeline of what's happening?

@muna I suspect she does know, but doesn't want to bare all here with strangers. I think what can be harder is knowing how to do what a social worker says. For example being told a house is not clean enough and been given 1 or 2 examples. If you were brought up in an extremely dirty and messy home you may not understand what a satisfactory level of cleanliness is and how to achieve it. And I think you can see from the many threads on here asking questions like how often do you change your sheets, that there are a fair number of people that don't know what is normal.
Even harder on things like playing and engaging with your kids to learn what is normal and works best.

OP I've just read your thread.

It's been said before, but the one question you need to ask yourself is 'what do I need to do to get my daughters home'. And then answer it and demonstrate to SWs that you have a plan in place.

All of the rest is noise. Don't try and fight the system, focus all your energies on what you need to do to get your children back.

I hope you're bearing up.

As for all the crap about home decor, so long as your place is clean and presentable (and it sounds like it is), it won't matter.

but the problem is that her DD has been taken away because she's developmentally very late which SS are concerned is due to neglect.
If she's sleeping in a stark empty room it's not going to look good on the OP.
The OP needs to show she can provide a suitable home that satisfies what SS want. If this means adding some simple interior furnishings, a few pictures, rugs etc, then it's an easy thing for the OP to do to demonstrate to SS that's she can do this.

Another concern has been that she's moved around a lot. Really making a place your own would show that she's settled (I know she's still in temporary accommodation but she doesn't know for how long).

Also Op if you've still got damp / a leak somewhere you should put this in writing to the council (with photos if possible)
You can use this as proof of trying to improve your living conditions.

I have to admit that i'm struggling to understand how someone so clearly intelligent and articulate struggles to understand what makes a place look homely or nice. Even if you were bought up in total neglect, we are surrounded by images of homes on the TV and in adverts. You said that you found the photos that you posted 'cluttered', yet also said that you had been told that you had too many soft toys/clothes and clutter. You are painting a picture of a very stark, but messy environment. I mean this kindly; either you do know what you need to do but have lost all confidence and have become paralyzed with small details and indecision. Or you genuinely don't know the difference between a homely stimulating safe environment and somewhere stark and unwelcoming. If the latter, then you will probably need a lot of continued help and support in raising your girls. You have engaged with home start, but are there any other friends or family who can help you? Can you consider relocating to be close to relatives? If you're unable to make changes independently, then you need to ensure that you have a lot of long term close support.

@corblimey The images we are surrounded by are "ideal" middle-class homes for people with plenty of money.
Its like saying how does someone who has never celebrated Christmas not know what a normal Christmas family celebration is like when we are surrounded by images of it. Except we all know those representations are rarely normal ones.

OP, your most recent posts seem far more reflective and listening. Please continue to take on board heartfelt advice and comments.
Just a little one from me - next time you have contact with the girls can you do some drawing together then being the picture home and stick on the fridge?

I'm wondering about the home situation and the 'nice' relatives (an aunt?) I know there is something where if you have a family connection you can sometimes get council accommodation in the area. Maybe that might be an option? If it is not too far away though. Also, toy libraries can be good for borrowing things and changing them around.

OP I think a lot of the advice you are getting here about toys, interaction etc is based on interacting with neurotypical children, and therefore not particularly useful to you.

Your daughter isn't lining things up because you aren't playing with her 'properly'. She's doing it because she is autistic, by the sounds of it, and you could be doing the most imaginative play ever and she would still want to line them up.

@jamoncrumpets that may be the case but as yet she is not assessed therefore there can be no assumption of autism. op needs to demonstrate her abilities to play with them and adapt strategy from one dd to other according to age appropriateness and development. It is not the dc under the spotlight.

I disagree @LIZS - I think allowing children to play in the way their natural inclinations direct them is actually more appropriate. Forcing them to play, in a way that is unnatural to both parent and child, cannot be healthy for anyone involved;

Before my DS got his formal diagnosis we had all manner of adaptions in place to make his life happier and easier. Should we have waited until his diagnosis to make these changes?!

jamoncrumpets
Kids often go through a lining things up phase. It's not always a sign of autism. Making little collections of objects is part of the same thing.

The point of something like a puzzle may go completely over the head of a NT child until after age 5-6. Children might instead make a collection of the ocean bits or the sky because they like the colour blue. Or put the kitten bits together in a basket because they like kittens. Or they will take the letter that their name starts with out of an alphabet puzzle and keep it with their little treasures.

caranconnor - Yes, if the SW is the one telling the OP to do time outs/ thinking chair then she should do it. But only if the DD has been told what to expect, what the time apart is for, and if the time spent is limited and followed by a hug. (I personally have lots of reservations about time outs even done properly, but heyho).

The OP didn't mention any prior warning or explanation, just that she was ignoring her DD when she acted up. This isn't what a time out is. It is a bewildering cutting off of mum's attention.

@mathanxiety Totally agree that there needs to be an explanation of why time out is happening.
OP if you are unsure of how to do that, look at what supernanny teaches parents to do. Apologies if you already know how to do this though.

Also OP I agree with mathanxiety. It is the social workers assessing you. You have to show that you can interact with your children in a way that would be judged normal by them. Someone not being assessed by social workers is freer to adopt different approaches or more unusual approaches.

having a family history of autism, AND lining things up to play is a pretty strong indicator for further assessment though. Its actually not not something typically done by NT children to any great extent

I don't think it is helpful to OP at the moment to make assumptions about whether her children have any SN. Her focus needs to be getting on them back.