Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

@caranconnor that's really useful, thank you. I've asked for support in child play before, because I didn't used to be very confident doing it. You explained it really clearly, which is great. I will have a look online for that book.

@PutsFootInIt I think encouraging the OP to ignore all the comments that she doesn’t want to hear, or doesn’t want to address is highly unlikely to be helpful.

The only way she’ll get her children back, is by listening to the things she doesn’t want to hear, and fixing things even if she doesn’t agree. Following her instincts and doing as she is has led to her children being taken away. It’s not the right course of action to carry on and ignore what she doesn’t want to hear

Also if your child does not respond don't give up. Just sit there calmly, in my example above maybe pick up different farm animals and look at them, and then do some more pretend play again in another 5 minutes. It can take time for a parent and child to learn how to play together. Its not just you who has to learn and get used to it, your child has to as well. So great if your child responds quickly to you, but if not just try and be patient and calm.

@PutsFootInIt I was pretty upset before and it made me feel that any efforts will be futile. I've freshened up some of the girls' clothes and vacuumed their room. I think they need to take another look at the leak, as it's damp again. The window is open, so it should have good circulation, but I digress.

Some of the people demand questions like the ss do, I find this incredibly difficult, but it does come rather frustrating and upsetting. Some of the posters have been kind and understanding.

I think you're right about the discrimination due to the Asperger's. I can't tick their boxes very well, because my communication isn't brilliant. I'm also articulate, so I feel they may believe that I'm deliberately avoidant. I've been told that I answer questions like a politician before now. I'm not sure how to answer any differently.

I think disclosing my cultural background would be outing, but my name makes it obvious I'm not from a wholly British background. My girls are mixed. I've seen that a good amount of the kids removed around here are mixed race or ethnic minority. I'm not sure whether this is veiled racism, or a lack of understanding of other cultures. For example, in some other countries, you'll see young kiddies on the park at 11pm or sat at a table where parents are drinks. Neither of these are deemed acceptable over here and could be construed as neglect. Also, in many South Asian cultures, respect is a big thing, but this could look like you're not meeting your children's emotional needs.

Unfortunately, if I don't get them back, it will be going down the adoption route, if any appropriate people are found. This makes it especially hard. If they were with family or a friend, this would be better. But this isn't realistically an option.

It's really nice to hear about your brother. I'm not sure I'd advise having children if you're on the spectrum in this day and age. Attitudes towards disabilities can be very negative and you're treated like a burden on the state xx

@caranconnor So don't push it, but encourage it and persevere? I think I'm doing better with my younger one, as she responds really well to play, but I have experience with her age already. What do I do in between the 5 minutes?

Some of the people demand questions like the ss do, I find this incredibly difficult, but it does come rather frustrating and upsetting

@SeaOfDespair, I hope you don’t take offence at this suggestion... you sound highly intelligent and articulate. If you understand that you don’t answer questions straightforwardly, and seem evasive, is it not something that you could actively work to overcome?

I've been trying to communicate like a normal person for years. I've asked autism team, who used to work with me, how I can be normal, but they said I should ask people to put things in another way. I've had a look online at body language too, but I struggle to judge it correctly.

It's quite weird, because 93% of language is non-verbal, so I've only got the 7%. I know a lot of people misread my body language and think that I'm displaying an emotion that I'm not.

In between the 5 minutes just sit there looking at the animals. Maybe picking them up and looking.
Sorry maybe I wasnt clear as well. I wouldnt just say the one sentence when playing with the pig. I would say out loud a mini story. Maybe 2 or 3 minutes long?

I agree that different cultures have very different ideas about child rearing. So yes something that is considered generally neglect here by SS, is not in some other cultures or countries. But you can not change that. You have to just try and accept it and conform.

@caranconnor So if I had a cow, I'd make up a little story for him? Such as Callum the cow is going for a swim today, he really likes to swim and after that, he likes to eat grass and go for a walk?

Could you stop and think before speaking, so you don't come across as evasive ('answering like a politician')?

The SWs want direct and clear yes and no answers, not ruminations on the meaning of words or accusations of racism or discrimination against you.

There are a lot of unanswered questions on this thread, and long posts from you about how SWs need to talk to you in a way that you understand - I suspect many posters are forming their own conclusions as to how you are coming across to the SWs. That is to say - just as you yourself have remarked - like a politician. Giving non-responsive answers is how a lawyer would put it.

One recent question you seem to have glossed over completely is from MunaZaldrizoti at 23:57:46:
Did you attend core groups and child protection conferences OP?
This is a chance to say Yes or No.

Yes exactly. You can add bits in there that kids might like, for example - he likes to eat grass - munch, munch, munch. Or he goes for a swim - swish, swish, swish - or whatever noise you want to use for swimming. And you can add really silly bits as well. For example, after he went for a walk he grew wings and used them to fly home. Often being a bit silly will get a child's interest and they might say something like - cows don't fly.

If I stop and think, I'm likely to get even more anxious and may not say anything. Sometimes the social anxiety with my condition makes me ramble, but sometimes it stops me talking entirely.

I miss questions, sometimes there are too many to reply to and it's overwhelming. I didn't see Muna's question. The answer is yes.

@caranconnor Oooh, I get what you mean, adding little sounds in to engage their attention. How do I get her to understand what I'm saying?

Don't worry if she does not understand everything you say. I have talked a lot to tiny babies and as long as you don't use a monotone voice, they often listen. I am sure they don't understand everything, but it comes in time.
Worth googling ideas for how to best play with young children, like this article.
www.naeyc.org/our-work/families/support-learning-with-play

Just if you do google be aware there are articles questioning or criticising parents feeling lots of pressure to play with their kids as well. These though are aimed at parents who think they have to spend every waking minute playing with their child. That is not healthy either. Like most things a balance is the key.

@caranconnor Strangely enough, I've done a lot of work with my tone of voice recently, because she won't respond to most of them. I had to practice for ages to get it sort of right. Volume control is another issue, but I'm getting a bit better.

Thank you for that link, I'll take a look at it now.

What would you say is an appropriate amount of time to spend playing with children? One of my friends commented that I go over the top trying to communicate with her. But I think there are concerns I don't do it enough. What would you say the right balance is?

Interesting what your friend says. She might mean that you are coming across as a bit pushy maybe? For example one of my friends talked constantly to her young son all the time without pause, it was just exhausting to listen to.
So with talking to her I would talk most of the day, but with silences in between. So for example, going to the shop I would say - lets go to the shop now and buy some food. Then say things lets put on your blue shoes. Now lets get your coat on. Okay off we set. And so on. I don't know if that is clear, but the point is that it is not constant chatter. Bit of talk, bit of quiet, bit of talk.
In terms of playing its hard for me to say. In spite of the advice I am giving I am not a specialist in this. I probably did it myself in little bursts throughout the day, and at least once a day getting things out to have an actual play session. When I say little bursts of play, I mean like peek a boo for 5 minutes or less. Or shaking a rattle or something that made a noise - and they nearly always then reach for it themselves to make the noise themselves. Or blowing raspberries on her tummy. Most of these short bursts of play are very short. The play session would depend on how long they were interested in playing and that does vary depending on personality.

The articles questioning parents playing with their kids too much tend to be parents who never ever leave their kids to play alone even for a few minutes. So it is fine if your child is happy to leave them to play alone for a bit with you just in the room.

Sea, I just wanted to jump in and offer a handhold. Very very different situation to you (my husband and I are prospective adooters) so I appreciate I can't offer advice as such.

What I do want to say is that my husband has Aspergers and we have come across some pretty blatant ignorance even as prospective adopters. I can't give too much detail but it's included open hostility and some frankly rude questions. Our own SW is brilliant which has helped. We have had a very high level complaint with social services upheld in full and staff involved will be retrained and asked to reflect on their behaviour.

Not trying to derail your thread but we are a nice couple and I've felt like I'm in a bad dream at times with some of the crap we've put up with. So you're not alone in struggling to get social services to understand you and how you see and experience the world

And great that you worked on your tone of voice. It is so important with kids. I remember watching a Supernanny episode where one of the major issues the mum was having was caused by the tone she used. Her kids listened to her way more when she changed her tone of voice. So she had a similar experience to you.

@caranconnor Yes, I think that's what she meant. I constantly try to talk to her, so that she can develop language skills. I do try to keep it appropriate, rather than talking complete nonsense (I do have that tendency) so if we were walking down the road, I'd point to things and name them. When she paid an interest in something, I would talk about that. Sometimes my throat would hurt by the end of the day. If she saw a dog, for example, I'd go, "look at that doggy, that's a Labrador, isn't really white and shiny. Say hi to doggy". She loved to be picked up and swung around, I had the problem of her getting between my legs to be picked up, in really random places. She likes to hold my hand too, but I don't force it. She also loves tickles and does this really cute belly laugh.

My younger one is a bit easier and sometimes will hold a blanket over her face, whilst I pretend to find her, then pull it down, so I say, "there you are". So pretty much like peekaboo. I also hold her hands, so that she can walk and guide her to toys (like an upright baby walker). She's into toy blocks at the moment, so I would go, for example, "pink block"... then "look, here's a pink block one a red block". If she picks up an animal, I would name it. I keep it more simple with her, is this right?

I've been asking for feedback at contact and I've been told that I interact with them in a positive way. If my elder one plays up, I would usually put her on a chair for a minute and ignore her. I'm not sure this is right, but I've been told it's a good method. I wouldn't physically chastise her and I don't shout at her, because these can be really damaging for kiddies.

Sorry, also to add, I do encourage my elder one to be independent too. So I encourage her to get her coat on and help me tidy the toys away (as if that ever happens). When she was at home, I'd let her have a go at brushing her own teeth, then go over them after. I'd sing a silly song that I made up for her, because she seemed to like it.

For a child with a speech delay, you can repeat snatches of phrases or even an entire short phrase all in a sing songy voice.

'Off we go, off we go'.

'Let's get your coat on, push your hands in, push, push, push, push, button, button, button, button. Now your coat is on and off we go'.

'I'm pour, pour, pouring your milk, your lovely cold milk'.

@Serenity45 I'm sorry that your husband wasn't treated in the best way, I empathise that it's really frustrating. Professions tend to be quite hostile towards me and sometimes treat me as if I'm really slow, or got something really wrong with me. You would have thought they'd treat people outside of safeguarding a bit better, but it's clearly not the case.

I'm really glad your SW is nice and that your complaint was upheld. It does help if you've got someone caring and understanding on your side. Unfortunately, sometimes you get what you're given and you have to deal with unprofessional attitudes, but it's really nice to know that things are getting better for you.

I feel like I'm living in a nightmare and when I wake up, everything will be ok. Then I realise that it's reality. I know what you mean.

@mathanxiety they sound like my brushing your teeth song or tickly, tickly feet song.

So I'd go, "brushing your teeth, brush brush brush, get them nice and clean, brush brush brush"

My tickly, tickly feet song literally goes, "tickly, tickly feet, you've got such tickly tickly feet"

I will try your tips, as it sounds like a really good idea. I'd usually sing a song when it was raining or sunny, in a hope that she'd learn some words about weather.

If my elder one plays up, I would usually put her on a chair for a minute and ignore her. I'm not sure this is right, but I've been told it's a good method.

Don't do this.

Unless you explain to her that if she repeats behaviour she isn't allowed to do she will have to sit on the thinking chair, your child has no idea why she is being put on the chair or why mummy is ignoring her.

This can contribute to attachment issues.

She is only 3. If she is upset, ask her what's wrong. She might point at something and you can ask if she wants that thing. She might point at another child and you can ask if he or she hurt her. Or she might have hurt herself somehow. Or she might be tired. Ask all these questions. Ask if she needs a hug or a kiss on her belly or a little song.

If she has been misbehaving - taking toys from others or doing something she isn't allowed to do like climbing on furniture, or throwing things, ask her to stop because "we don't take toys from others" or "we don't climb on the kitchen table" or "we don't throw the blocks".

Since she is non-verbal you have to give her the benefit of the doubt about what she understands and keep reprimands simple and short. After asking her to stop, and asking her not to do whatever it was again, you can give a hug and thank her for listening. You may need to repeat the instruction. If so, then you need to find a distraction. Maybe she would like to paint, or if you're out, maybe she could hold something from the shopping trolley, or maybe help you to find the apples, or keep a lookout and shout if she sees a bus or a fire engine or McDonalds, etc.

Don't leave her apart from you to deal with her emotions on her own.

Yes, your songs sound good. Match the words to the action.