Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

bigearrings this was just one aspect of trying to help OP to address any concerns about the environment the children were in. It’s hard to know without photos what a person’s idea of an appropriate home looks like, so by looking at examples and comparing it, maybe she can see how hers compares in the eyes of SS. If all of that seems fine, we can move on to the next aspect. Lots of people have given lots of other advice and we were trying to list things they would expect to see in a normal household, such as clean towels, toiletries, plenty of food, clothes, clean bedding etc.

Of course perishable food can be kept outside a fridge: bread, eggs, many fruit and vegetables - none of those things should be in the blooming fridge if you want them to be edible. What kind of training do these 'judges' even have?

I don't wish to argue with you. I know the truth and you want to prove me wrong. There's nothing I can do about that, sorry.

OP, can you list here what toys you have for the children? And be specific. So for example, how many puzzles do you have, and how many pieces are they?
How many books? You’ve mentioned the soft toys a lot. Do they have any toys that make sounds, play music? What else?
Do you have a tv, DVD player etc? How much tv do the children watch?

Do people put bread and eggs in the fridge?! I always put my fruit and veg in the crisper, but most of my relatives don't, in fairness.

Of course perishable food can be kept outside a fridge

Perishable of course generally understood to mean meat, milk, etc. 🙄 All food is perishable, technically, except perhaps honey. I really feel like you're being willfully obtuse here; most people refer to perishables as things that require refrigeration, not bread, etc.

I think I've already listed some of the toys on here. I couldn't give you specific numbers without dragging them all out and counting them. Yeah, they have regular toys...

I have a TV, no DVD player (do people still have these?) sometimes very little, sometimes a couple of hours or so.

Oh yeah, lots of books, my elder one loves them. She loves those, "that's not my...." ones too.

If you've got loads of appropriate toys and books for the children, why was this flagged up as a concern?

What exactly did they say?

OP, can you list here what toys you have for the children? And be specific. So for example, how many puzzles do you have, and how many pieces are they?
How many books?

To be fair, even if she had no toys whatsoever, it wouldn't be worth taking her kids away, surely? You'd just ask her to buy some, if you thought it necessary, and check that she had. TBH, many of the group's I went to when on maternity leave were about using everyday objects as toys, like pots, pans and cardboard boxes. They were forever saying you don't need lots of toys.

You're wrong there on both counts @steff13- perishable just means it won't keep long. British homes have only had fridges as standard for sixty odd years! Before that perishables all went in the larder. It's scary that someone in such a position of power lacks such basic knowledge.

It was a good while ago and it's because she had only seen soft toys, but she didn't ask, she jumped to the conclusion.

*groups. Predictive text fail.

I remember my grandmother saying that even in the 60s, a fridge was a luxury. She knew lots of people who didn't have one until the 70s. I've known other people who've been homeless who've struggled to get white goods, if the assistance fund doesn't help. Even if you are, you do have to wait about 6 weeks in total. I was super lucky.

A friend of mine didn't get a washer, so she had to hand wash everything until she could afford one, on UC, which was a nightmare for her. I had to help her out with it, as the launderette was too expensive and limited hours.

Salad stuff, green veg, apples and berries in the fridge.

Potatoes, onions, garlic in a dark cupboard. Bananas, oranges, plums etc in a fruit bowl.

Bread is out unless we have a lot then some gets frozen. I never put eggs in the fridge.

That’s just a rough idea how we organise stuff.

It was a good while ago and it's because she had only seen soft toys, but she didn't ask, she jumped to the conclusion.

I think there might be a bit more to this OP. Before your children were removed social workers would have come round and done assessments. I've read assessments like this, they look in the children's bedrooms, what food you've got in the fridge etc. If they've put it in a report, I imagine it's because there weren't many if any appropriate toys for children, not that you only had soft toys in the living room - that wouldn't be noteworthy, and wouldn't make it onto a report that is read by the courts.

Roly OP said a lack of stimulation was one reason given for neglect. So if there were no toys at all, of course that in itself isn’t reason enough, but it all adds to the general concerns. An empty box and pots and pans might be fine for a playgroup once a week, but surely not as their only stimulation all day every day at home?
If an adult is on their own at home all day with 2 young kids, that’s a lot of hours to keep them entertained.

Just trying to build up a picture of a typical day. For example, a child can fall behind in their development if their parent doesn’t talk to them very much, or sit on the floor and play with them, or read to them.

How did Social Services first become involved with you, OP?

Glacecherrychops - again this makes me laugh. I used to run a nursery that had no toys in it at all, purely every day items teapots, leaves, pebbles, nuts and bolts that were used in craft or make believe and we won awards.

Well yes, but that is a nursery that presumable has items designed to stimulate child development.

A child's home environment is different - you would expect them to have lots of books and toys, especially of they aren't in nursery and are at home all day. If there is a concern the child isn't being stimulated and is developmentally delayed due to neglect, this would be looked at closely. Some leaves, pebbles and nuts and bolts aren't going to cut it, are they?

How did you nursery meet the literacy curriculum requirements?

It is not the quantity of toys which is the issue but whether they are age/development appropriate and how you interact together with them. Soft toys alone have limited value, but if you introduce a teaset, pushchair or allow them to "talk" they become more educational. Are you "talking" with her even if she is non verbal? Do you read with them, use board and picture books? 50 piece puzzles are no good if they cannot manage any with 5 pieces. What do you do at the supervised contact visits?

I usually keep my red onions in the crisper and I've usually got diced onions in the freezer. Garlic I have as a puree, which is kept in the fridge. I will admit that I keep potatoes in the fridge too. There isn't a fruit bowl here, so when the girls were here, I'd usually get it from the fridge and offer it. Grapes always go in the fridge, as they tend to be iffy. Hardly ever buy strawberries (probably not for a year or so). Apples and easy peelers go in the fridge too.

My auntie puts her fruit and veg in a tray, which she shoves on top of her fridge. I can't remember having much fruit or veg as a child, apart from at my grandparents' house. I think we occasionally had potatoes in, they were probably left on the side.

I've probably left absolutely loads of fruit and veg out, but yeah, they tend to go in the fridge.

glacecherry I’d agree, SS wouldn’t visit once, see a bunch of soft toys and just write a conclusion that there were no appropriate toys. Surely they’d ask if there were any others, or look on subsequent visits. A baby under a year old would need lots of colourful things, different textures, sounds, and need to be played with, not just left to occupy themselves. A baby activity mat for example, with buttons to press, crinkly sounds, musical toys.
A 4 piece puzzle might occupy a 3 year old for about a minute, then they need more. That’s why I was asking, OP.

You're very very good at obfucating and avoiding giving a direct answer to a question. I wonder why?

We have a couple of singing teapots and a singing picnic basket. One of those singing teapots had pieces of cake, which my eldest daughter loves to line up. I tried to get her to play with it and pretended to drink from the cup, after pretending to pour a cup of tea. I got her dollies involved. I keep trying to read to her and sit next to her when she's reading a book, but she does generally shove my hands away and sits elsewhere with it.

I do find it's easier with her drawing and painting, because there's more room for encouragement and letting her know what a nice picture she's creating.

I also encourage role play with dollies, encouraging her to feed baby and taking turns. Occasionally it works. I also make toys talk and encourage her to 'talk' to them.

She has very little interest in puzzles, she will occasionally put all of the pieces in a line, fling them and put them back in a line. She loves to do this with shoes and over objects too.

Oh, she's got a kiddies kitchen set too, which I can use to play with her as well, she loves the pan & utensil set as she can make a racket with it. Plus, she seems to love random objects, rather than things that 'do' something.