Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

An appropriate advocate service for people with ASD, you mean? Just put your name down on several agencies and wait. As pp said, you will at least appear willing to help yourself.

If the SS have concerns about the cleanliness of your house - that £50 for child psych sessions would be better spent on having your home cleaned on a weekly basis, and adding some home decor here and there.

I really don't think SS remove children based on history, unless your history is that bad you are deemed a risk to your children's safety. They will also be basing it on what you say/your attitude, how the children present, the home environment, family and or community links, etc

A cleaning schedule doesn’t need to revolve around kids. It’s obviously easier without kids there.
A very simple example would be:
Monday - tidy and polish the lounge, vacuum, clean the inside of the windows, tidy the hallway.
Tuesday - clean the bathroom, change towels and hand towels
Wednesday - polish and vacuum the bedrooms and change the sheets
Thursday - deep clean the kitchen (mop floors, clean all surfaces, clean hob and oven if necessary)
Friday - get all the laundry done and put away
I don’t know how you wouldn’t know if it was satisfactory or not. Think about if a guest was coming to stay, look around and see what you’d think if you were them. Is there visible dust anywhere, are there marks on the skirting boards, are there dirty fingerprints anywhere, scuffs on the walls, anything broken or hanging off, is the toilet sparkling clean or full of limescale, is the kettle clean, are the hand towels changed regularly, do you have plenty of toiletries, is there hand soap, is there a clean bath mat, plenty of clean towels, does the flat smell nice, could you get a nice air freshener or reed diffuser, are the carpets clean, are the surfaces clear of clutter, is paperwork tidy and organised, are the bins and recycling tidy, are dishes done and put away.
All of this will help occupy some of your time, but also keep on top of things. If all of this is fine and never been commented on, what have they commented on?

When you get referred by a GP you would normally receive a letter confirming it wouldn’t you? Keep all letters and appointment confirmations.
At the next hearing, have records of everything. Do you have a record of dates you’ve taken your DC to the GP to discuss autism concerns? And notes of what they’ve said? Your solicitor will need to be able to defend anything with proof. Keep everything you have as proof you have done or plan to do.
I don’t really know anything about the process, but are you just supposed to wait around for the next hearing? Is there anything they’ve asked you to do by then? There is no point going to the next one if nothing at your end has changed. Whatever the reasons for the Dc being taken, have a clear step by step plan of how you’ve made changes for every single concern. Don’t just deny them, show them how it’s different now.

I’ve seen better and I’ve seen worse.

Are the flats you've seen that are worse than yours from your dreadful childhood by any chance? You might have difficulty identofying what is 'normal' after a troubled childhood where you were neglected yourself.

If the main concern is a messy flat, this is crazy compared to the love and attention of a secure attachement to a parent. But if it's what it takes -- do the ridiculous cleaning schedule.

I think Chaz had excellent advice about needing to acknowledge and address each of the concerns, even if you do it without accepting that they are valid. You can still address them, as Chaz suggests.

Now is not the time to fight battles and improve the system. Just knuckle down, play the game even if you think it is wrong, in order to get your girls back!

Some of you are thinking far too logically. Emptying bins etc are all tangible. My experience of SS was to state the bathroom was too small. Too small in a section 7. But absolutely fine when I applied to be a foster carer myself.

There’s no rhyme or reason with them

I’ve no idea, re: the flat. I’ve seen better and I’ve seen worse. Cosy, I have no idea. Isn’t cosy usually used as way how to describe a cramped tip?

• You are coming across there ^^ as unwilling to be tied down on the matter of what the flat was like. In other words, trying to hide something. When you answer questions related to specific concerns, for example, 'What was your flat like?' with generalised answers like, 'I've seen worse', or 'Define cosy', you come across as evasive.
• You are also coming across as someone who likes splitting hairs.
• And maybe even someone who genuinely doesn't know what a comfortable, clean, neat, safe home should look like.

None of that is going to give SWs confidence that you can pull off parenting of your girls.

For the purposes of SWs assessing your flat, it doesn't matter one bit that there are worse flats. All that matters is whether they think yours is a proper environment for your girls.

'Cosy' means comfortable, clean, neat, safe.

No, no pictures. I don’t like them on the wall.
You should put up pictures of your girls.
Do you have a shelf in a sitting area or in your bedroom where you could put framed photos? Or a bookshelf unit - you could put framed photos on top of that.
That way they wouldn't be on the wall but still displayed.

You should also put up a calendar, maybe in your kitchen.

I’ve contacted FRG and Mencap. Someone from Mencap will contact me tomorrow, the lady over the phone said my local coordinator is very experienced at dealing with safeguarding issues.
That was on the 14th.
Did Mencap get back to you?
Did you phone them again if not?

I agree math - if someone asked me if my home was cosy, I’d say “yes, in the evenings I snuggle under a blanket with the fireplace on and watch Strictly with a mug of hot chocolate” - it feels warm, comfortable, safe and I enjoy being there. I also feel proud of it. I like spending time in my home, little things make it cosy like a nice lamp for a warm glow, a soft rug, a plant on a drawer unit. If I saw 4 completely empty white walls with no clock, no photos, no art or any kind of personality, I’d feel like it was a dentists waiting room.
I think when OP referred to the ‘cramped tip’ she was mixing up when people are being polite about somewhere small. No idea about the ‘tip’ part though. It’s just when someone asks what you think of their new house, and you might politely say “oh it’s lovely... charming....cosy” as alternative ways of saying ‘small’. But a huge mansion could still be cosy, it’s about the feeling you get, I guess it’s the opposite of being minimalist and sparse.
Do you not have any photos of your children framed OP? I can’t think of anyone I know who doesn’t have at least one photo in their home of their own children. I have loads, some on walls, not huge canvas things, but framed photos, also on the mantle, and I have some of nieces and nephews too.

Yes, 'cosy' can mean something else in estate agent speak.

But the OP knows the context here - the context is her flat, and whether it's a suitable environment for her children. And there are online dictionaries too.

Part of the OP's narrative in this thread is that the SWs are playing guessing games with her, but it is really important that she tries to limit that sort of thinking and remember that words have specific meanings in the context of children being placed in care.
Clinging to the guessing game narrative is an obstacle to progress in getting the girls back.

To a certain extent the puzzlement about what words mean comes from a sense of panic, of being overwhelmed when faced with the monolith of Social Services and the care process.

But there can also be refusal to accept reality, and the puzzlement and tendency to split hairs illustrate that. It is very likely that the SWs are interpreting the bewilderment this way.

The answers that OP is giving is the answers I totally expect from someone with ASD who had a chaotic and abusive background.

We dont know what is normal. we have no reference frame around it and we dont really understand what these arbitary terms like 'cosy' mean. These are words from the neurotypical world, they have no reference for someone who has not come from a place where our parents have shown and explained things, or given us a home that we can build our own around.

@SeaOfDespair lady website - Ive not used it but Ive seen many recommend it for regaining order out of chaos.

I sent you via message my psychologist who is an AS specialist expert witness - he may not be in your area but he might be able to point you to someone who is or give some advice as to how to find someone

as for 'cosy' and 'homely' - google this. google 'cosy lounge' cosy childs room, homely childs room, best childs room 2-4 years, best girls room, child friendly bathroom etc

get some ideas and copy.

similar google things like 'storage solutions for small places' - look at what others do and copy it.

things that we may find superfluous, thats what they look for. colour. soft textures, rugs

storage is a good thing because if you gather stuff, its good to try and get it put away somewhere.

and yes yes to chasing people up. Ive just had this discussion with my partner who, at age 54 is only just realising that 1. people DONT ring back when they say and 2. it doesnt mean they are deliberately snubbing you, they are simply busy and forgetful and 3. nobody minds being chased up

Sorry, to clarify, my flat is like the 'dentist waiting room'. I've thought about how the word 'cosy' is being used in this sense, but I'm not sure I've ever felt that way. The best feeling of safe is that nobody is going to kick my door is, so that the walls protect me.

All of the places I've lived in are pretty bare, they never feel personal, so this is what I'm used to. I've never had pictures on the wall, or things like that, so the idea makes me feel really uncomfortable. The homes I've grown in up never had pictures up either, but have been cluttered with absolute junk.

I've added some pictures of 'cosy lounge' from Google. Would this look cluttered to you? They look a bit cluttered to me and would make me a bit anxious.

To clarify about the kitchen, adding a picture would be too outing, but I can describe it. I've got 2 cupboards on the wall, 1 is full of perishables and the other is full of plates, glasses and various other things of this nature. Effectively, I've only got 1 cupboard for food. There's essentially one side, if you exclude the sink and draining board. I've got a microwave on there and a few tins on top, along with a packet of herbal tea. I've got some cooking oil and a few spices lined up on the other side of the cooker (in built unit). The cupboards near to the floor have got an extra plate set in and the other has got pans and other utensils in, such as the blender and pyrex bowls.

In a row I've got the fridge freezer, dryer, a small storage box and a bin. Sometimes I place a large bag either on the dryer or storage box, to put clean clothes in, before they get sorted.

I also have a storage basket in front of the dryer. My recycling bags go the cutlery and knife drawer, as I don't have the extra room for another bin. The only thing that's on the floor is a laundry basket and a reusable strong bag (50p ones from supermarkets), containing other folded bags. This is right in the corner, by the back door. My fridge freezer sometimes has odds and ends on the top of it, such as loaves of bread and other stuff.

Oh... I put my laundry and cleaning stuff on the window sill, along with a box of cereal, as this is far too high up for my elder daughter to reach. Mainly for safety.

My bathroom is a bit cluttered too, I've got a storage box full of towels in there, next to a unit for the bath stuff and make up. I used to put bags of nappies on the window sill there and packets of wipes.

I've just Googled the storage solutions for small spaces. I probably could do with a little cupboard shelf unit high up in the girls' bedroom. Something that looks tasteful. I got rid of the chest of drawers, as she thought it was a climbing frame.

I'm reading this website... makespace.com/blog/posts/bedroom-storage-hacks-solutions/

Do any of these look cluttered? Some of them look like what the ss would define as cluttered, like stuff on units.

Also, I've got a box in my living room, I can't say what for without outing myself, but is there any good way I can make this into a unit? I'm thinking of shifting my wifi box and other things of this nature under my TV. My wires aren't unsafe, but they're unsightly. It would mean most of them in one place too, which would be great.

Those pictures look like lovely spaces, not cluttered at all imo.

I've got 2 cupboards on the wall, 1 is full of perishables

You keep perishables in the cupboard?

This stood out to me and I'll tell you why. I'm a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) in my county. I spend time with children in care and their families and, then speak to the judge about what I've observed. In my training a specific example of neglect that was given was perishable food being kept in the cabinet instead of the refrigerator.

You got some good advice from an attorney a couple pages back. You need to do whatever they ask, with a pleasant attitude. If you need someone to go with you to meetings to take notes and help you understand what's being asked of you, do that. The fact of the matter is you're not in a position at this time to argue.

Have you taken a parenting class? That's always part of the reunification plan here, but I don't know about there. If not, look into it. It will see least show that you're trying to become a better parent.

@goodwinter What would you define as cluttered? I searched on Google and the images coming up look seriously untidy. They don't look anything like my place. And nothing like what I'd define as a bit untidy, but horrendous.

I've added pictures of 'clutter', but to me, they're horrendous. Actually, it seems other people's ideas of clutter are blood My kitchens growing up weren't that bad. But the bedroom with clothes all over the bed does remind me of my parent's bedroom, whilst I was growing up.

FF freezing on me when I click 'browse', I'll link instead:

c8.alamy.com/comp/E7H0HP/cluttered-room-E7H0HP.jpg

s.abcnews.com/images/Health/cluttered-home-stock-jef-190114_hpMain_12x5_992.jpg

redlotusletter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/cluttered-kitchen-1024x512.jpg - ok, this one isn't awful, but a lot more junk than mine.

juliascleaning.services/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Cluttered-Room.jpg - this looks a lot worse than what I grew up around

previews.123rf.com/images/klotz/klotz1904/klotz190400025/122475443-very-messy-cluttered-suburban-teenage-boys-bedroom-with-piles-of-clothes-music-and-sports-equipment-.jpg

I really hope people aren't thinking I live like those examples.

@steff13 Sorry, I must have mixed up the meaning. I meant tins of food, noodles, spices, other assorted junk that doesn't belong in the fridge. My milk, butter, meat etc., go in the fridge. Frozen stuff goes in the freezer.

Sorry, yes, perishable was the wrong word. I thought it meant cupboard junk. I was wrong.

Veg goes in my fridge crisper, along with fruit. I've got my courgette and cassava in there now. It's not very adventurous.

Those lounges look nice to me too. No, not cluttered. The second one is a good example of what I was talking about, rug, cushions, blanket, lamp, candle, pictures. It’s not cluttered because everything has its place. It’s tidy, and you can see that things are there on purpose. If a friend invited me round for coffee in that lounge, I’d think “ooh this is nice”

Is it photos that would make you feel uncomfortable, or any type of pictures (as in art, not actual people)? I understand if you’ve never had that on walls before, but would a change from the normal not be a good thing? You can get all sorts from places like The Range very cheaply, from metal art, abstract art, canvases, signs, just things that you like to look at and add personality to your home. It helps to make it feel like you belong there, like it’s your home. Feeling safe is the most important thing, but feeling like you belong somewhere and are happy to be there can really help. It’s like when teenagers put posters on their walls, it’s them adding their personality to their own space.

its really hard because in the temporary accommodaton you are seriously short of space, and, it seems in many many places the biggest issue is lack of storage space.

I understand what you mean about the waiting room look. and also can see how uneccesary decorative stuff could appear cluttered

do you know when SS are coming round, or do they drop by unannounced? Im just thinking about a box full of 'decorative touches' that could be pulled out when needed.

And those cluttered ones I would say are horrendous too. Probably more like hoarding. I’d say cluttered is having too much stuff with nowhere to keep it, not organised, stuff on the floor, can’t find anything because there’s just too much stuff in the way.
The cosy ones still had stuff, but it was organised and in the right place. So if you needed something, you’d know where it was.

This is all such bullshit. Your kids were NOT removed from you because you dont have pictures on the walls and plants and lamps.
You have told us that you have a lovely routine with tripa to the park and the library and then arts and crafts in the afternoon. You cook healthy balanced meals every day. Your children are clean and well dressed. Your home might be a little untidy but nothing out of the ordinary.

If all this was true then you would never have been on the radar of social services never mind the children being removed which is an absolute last resort.

You need to be honest with yourself about what has gone wrong because sure as eggs is eggs something has.