Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

Is it Neglect or Risk of neglect they are worried about?

Be careful of seeming conceited, it isn't fair when someone is being condescending to have to act like you didn't notice but it's much better then noticing and having to hide the tone of voice.

OP I hope you're heeding some of the great advice you are getting here. I especially thought Nettle Tea's advice a few pages back was great.
Best of luck OP. I really hope it works out for the best for you all.

It is about working with the social workers, trying to get on with them and realising that while they may be wrong they are the ones with the most influence and being seen to go along with their suggestions is a good tactic.

Try not to fight against them but use them as a tool to help you see what you need to do and where you need to be in their opinions. Be clear about what they want from you and try to sort it out yourself proactively rather than wait for them to arrange things - they are overworked and have other priorities.

Think - Is this argument more important than getting my children back. What is nit picking over past events going to achieve?

Getting some sort of advocate for meetings would be beneficial so you feel less alone and have impartial back up. Family or friends are not impartial and will often tell you want they think you want to hear rather than what you need to hear. They do not want to upset you so will not always be truthful.

sometimes SWs and other professionals may not find it easy dealing with people on a similar intellectual level to themselves.
Yes, some teachers too.

I thought they were there to help parents secure better accommodation from the council instead of actually trying to remove children, how terrible for poor families.

I spoke to a SW once about what they can do to help a situation and they said they are there to judge whether the child is abused, not help the adult look after them. The temporary accommodation provided by the council was used against this mother by SS to prove that she wasn't able to look after her children. They were taken into FC for some time until she managed to get them back. These were secondary aged kids though. If they were current little babies, theyd have gone for adoption.

When a child is not living in a clean, happy stimulated environment it is very damaging to their mental health. I know this due to my own experience, which I won’t share as it’ll bore you.

LittleBird would you be willing to share your situation and how it affected you? it wouldn't bore me but I understand if it's too painful...

The advice given by @caranconnor and @NettleTea a few pages back is spot on. Stop arguing with social workers, suck up the criticism and get on with improving your living arrangements. I also agree that giving up on the child psychology course and instead focusing on the basics of nutrition, safety and cleanliness is the way to go. It may be a pain to get to the contact but focus on the reason you're doing it. Good luck and keep going.

Yes, some teachers too

I don’t understand how that is relevant to the OP?

Affects their mental health. I know this due to my own experience, which I won’t share as it’ll bore you.*

Nobody would doubt that for one moment however I truly do not believe being away from their mother doesn’t affect it more.

I don’t understand how that is relevant to the OP?
Because there's some on MN who really do believe that anyone working with families and children (or anyone educated to a higher level) couldn't possibly manage to function with other educated people.
These people seem to routinely find they have run ins with people and rather than consider that the common factor is them, it's more comforting to decide that all these different people in different situations in different professions over time all happen to be threatened by their amazing intellect.

(That's general btw, not refering to the poster I was talking to up these who was working with a legal team).

LolaSmiles

Ah I see. I thought it was just an opportunity to shoehorn in a pop at teachers 😂😂

@LolaSmiles that’s actually the opposite of what the poster was suggesting.
The teachers at some schools do find it difficult if they are not the authority figure with the parents. I guess in SW even the bloody Queen would be on the backfoot

OP sorry I asked about how often you were going to contact because your complaints about the cost and difficulty of getting there made me worried that you were missing some contact sessions. I am glad that I was wrong. Because missing contact sessions is a sure fire way never to get your kids back.

Those talking about social workers helping to change things. In theory social workers are supposed to provide support. In practice because of the cuts, most social workers are struggling to do the absolute basics as they have far too many cases.

In terms of whether social workers can deal well with educated and articulate people - social workers are people. Some deal well with being challenged, some don't. Just like people everywhere. But the key thing to remember is they have power over you. So you do have to try and ignore your own feelings if they are patronising you. Most of us have done this with bosses, put up with patronising remarks or lectures. Because we understand that antagonising the person with power over you is not in your best interests.

I am a well educated, middle class white woman who lives in her own home

Why is your colour relevant?!

The teachers at some schools do find it difficult if they are not the authority figure with the parents. I guess in SW even the bloody Queen would be on the backfoot
There's personal authority and professional authority.
If I go to the doctor then I expect to be listened to, but ultimately they have the knowledge and experience that qualifies them to act. They're not perfect, but they absolutely have more authority on health than I do.
If I ask my mechanic about what's wrong with my car, they have professional knowledge and experience that I don't. They are the authority on that matter.

I'd say it's the other way round. Rather than saying SW/teachers have an issue with educated people, I think educated people can sometimes forget where their area of expertise ends and someone else's begins.

So for example, I get annoyed when some of my colleagues insist on acting like a half day course on teen mental health makes them an ideal replacement for CAMHS. They may well be educated on teaching, but they aren't a mental health expert and therefore need to know the limits of their knowledge.

Similarly, I've sat in parents' evenings and had parents inform me that I'm teaching the GCSE/A level course wrong, and they seem to think that because they are in professional jobs and are educated their opinion on education carries more weight than my track record on results and extensive training.

Nobody in any line of work is perfect, but people also need to have a little humility and realise where their knowledge ens and someone else's begins.

This thread is full of people who seem to honestly believe that mutliple professionals in different lines of work all just happen to have an issue with them, when really often when one person has a run in with lots of people the common factor is them

Just a point on this post:

I thought they were there to help parents secure better accommodation from the council instead of actually trying to remove children, how terrible for poor families.

I spoke to a SW once about what they can do to help a situation and they said they are there to judge whether the child is abused, not help the adult look after them. The temporary accommodation provided by the council was used against this mother by SS to prove that she wasn't able to look after her children. They were taken into FC for some time until she managed to get them back. These were secondary aged kids though. If they were current little babies, theyd have gone for adoption.

This seems very very unfair if true. What about a situation where a mother has moved herself and her children into temporary accommodation because a taxi least it is BETTER than where they have just left eg very poor condition of previous housing not resolved by landlord, or issues with other tenants’ drug use or constant noise meaning that children’s sleep is disturbed. Or to get away from an abusive boyfriend? Any situation where the security and wellbeing of the children is compromised through no fault of their parent. What about eg finding a school that is a better fit for a child with SEN in a neighbouring borough nearer to supportive family?? A move into temp accommodation while permanent is found maybe a necessity? What about having to move for a job, as the commute would be too expensive/long/mean the children would be in childcare too long?

These situations seem a perfectly a genuine reason to go into temporary accommodation to me. If people then have genuine difficulties finding a permanent home because of the dire housing situation in this country (and not because they are not doing their utmost to find something), then something needs to change in the way SW assess people. they need to make allowances for the fact that our housing system has deteriorated over the past decade of Tory rule, it should NOT mean that more children are taken into care. it’s just moving one social issue to another.

I really worry that our social services, health service and housing system are now just so inadequately funded that some cases are simply not being looked at closely enough, or followed through, or moved along if things are not happening fast enough. Or wrong decisions made because they of the opposite, that they’re being rushed through.

I work in education and I have noticed this in my sector, and I’m pretty sure it must be the same in SW. They’re isnr enough funding and staffing to do the job as you know it should be done. Sometimes staff who are not trained thoroughly enough, or not officially qualified for, are having to do things that they wouldn’t have done in the past, because jobs have been regraded. Because Initiatives like School Direct, in schools, often mean that trainees are thrown into the deep end often with inadequate support. Sectors with severe staffing shortages seem to be changing entry requirements to try to encourage people into the posts. How do we ensure that the right people are going into these professions and that they’re being trained and supported in the right way?

I worry more and more that some cases in SW, the NHS (including educational psychology assessments/CAMHS and other mental health organisations), Housing, Education are just not being dealt with properly like they would in the past. There aren’t the resources available to ensure it.

Yes, taking a child into care IS very expensive but it’s not impossible to think that the case was not assessed properly in the first place.

"Why is your colour relevant?!"

Ever heard of this thing called racism?

I despair sometimes, I really do.

I'd say it's the other way round. Rather than saying SW/teachers have an issue with educated people, I think educated people can sometimes forget where their area of expertise ends and someone else's begins.

I would agree with this. I work in healthcare, and it seems some people think that as they have been to University, or even just consider themselves to be of high intelligence, that they should be treated as a colleague rather than a service user.

Glacecherrychops
Yes. And I would imagine those people are the same type of person who also think:
They know better on education than teachers
They know more about child development and mental health than CAMHS professionals
They know more about safeguarding than social workers

And so on.

In the workplace they may still have that attitude that because they're in X job, they know as much about Y as a Y professional, and get shirty when people don't bow.

It's a certain personality type (just like people who seem to think that they're a perpetual victim e.g. a former colleague of mine had a list as long as their arm about all the ways various workplaces and colleagues had been out to get her. I'm sure a couple were personal, but on the whole the issue was with her. She couldn't see it though and decided that the whole education system was against her).

Why is my colour relevant? Because I'm white. And statistically more likely to die in old age than a woman of colour.

I think it is a real shame that if they felt there were issues in the first place the OP was not given more support at that stage instead of this all happening.

I had something similar after my second child was born- he also had a speech delay and I had some health problems (surgical and also mental health) and found the health visitor really supportive - she did counselling with me and arranged for some support at the children's centre nearby...groups and the like...there were courses and things with a creche but guess that might be gone now due to funding etc.

He got speech therapy and is Ok now (not that I think it helped that much) anyway. Thinking back maybe it was lucky it did not go on the direction it could have done.

There were social workers at the children's centre and I talked to them, they were really supportive and one even said they had MH difficulties after childbirth and understood how parents feel. They were supportive another mum with drug addiction and told me they always wherever possible try and keep children with their parents wherever possible.

I was very anxious due to being under MH services and having home visits etc from them this might be flagged as a 'risk' but they assured me this was not the case and it was not the case.

It is scary to think they do not support people with Autism enough with parenting or seem to understand it enough. Given my experience I would have thought it would have been a situation in which support, first and foremost was given if changes were needed, in a non confrontational way.

Sorry, I meant they were supporting another mum with drug addiction

I wondered if this may be of use to print off and give to any professionals so they might be able to understand a bit more? Forgive me if it is not but just a thought. It says there is a pdf also

network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/supporting-autistic-parents

• Advice for professionals on how to support autistic parents.

I was thinking about giving the sw a few leaflets about asd and its effects on people. I do have a feeling it will come across as a little patronising, though?

NO, please don't.

Patronising equals 'being hostile'.
Being hostile equals 'not engaging'.
Not engaging equals 'putting my feelings ahead of my DDs' welfare'.

In other words, it will come across as you still resisting the SWs and making excuses for not engaging. It will NOT move you forward in your aim of getting your girls back.

Please do not give the SWs any leaflets.

Talk to your Mencap advocate when they get in touch with you.
Explain that there are things you do not understand and list them.

Maybe show him or her this thread.

Let the advocate be your voice.