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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

934 replies

SeaOfDespair · 13/11/2019 21:32

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

OP posts:
ghostfromholidaypast · 14/11/2019 21:37

'Quite a few soft toys had to go, which was quite sad, as they were so adorable. '

How do you get sad over getting rid of some old toys when you don't have your dc???

Unless everything you have said is 100% and they are just picking on you for no reason then go to the papers! Shout from every roof top that the SW have taken you dc for no reason.

But I think it's more that you have to be right, and don't know when to stop talking and just do what they expect,
It's quite simple.
You mention that they keep bring up the past but you yourself have mention the abuse and lost of dc that has caused you to have issues.

These are your girls, and having them home with you is the only right thing, so if they say jump ask how high. Ask other people how they parent and ask how other got their dc back.
Stop making excuses, I can't believe your still on this thread most OP would of left but your still writing about how bad the SW are, how proud you are when you pay for something and how you don't get enough help.
I'm in absolute shock.

Chattybum · 14/11/2019 21:37

FFS OP, you haven't had your children removed from your care because you have a wacky parenting style!!! Children get removed if the risk of them staying outweighs the risk of them being separated from their parent, which is huge and upsetting for both parties. Which is why it's not taken lightly and needs hefty evidence to get it passed by a independent judge!

RuffleCrow · 14/11/2019 21:44

These are the threads that get the rest of us worried our kids will be removed if they don't have the right kind of toys, or if the house is a bit messy, or if the HV happens to be a bitch.

HungryAgain2019 · 14/11/2019 21:46

I nearly lost my children and I can say 100% that some (not all) sw and professionals DO have their own agenda and don't always do things 'by the book' I don't understand how people can say these things never happen.
My abusive ex made complaints of neglect by me and they were taken as gospel truth by ss. They put a cp in place and said I was alcohol dependent and on drugs. I have a glass of wine once in a blue moon and they refused to allow me to disprove allegations with drugs tests.
They said my children had no bedding (pillows, quilts etc) when they did a house check - their bedding was in my room because they had made a massive den. You couldn't exactly miss it!
In one breathe they said I didn't feed my children, then in the next they said they were slightly over weight 🤔
It was pointless defending myself because then I 'wasn't engaging'
My sw sat doodling, smirking and sighing in meetings and it was so hard to keep calm when my childrens lives and future seemed to not really matter to her.
In the end I put in a big complaint detailing all they had done wrong. The cp was dropped like a sack of shit and was stepped down within 3 weeks. Not surprising really when the plan said home visits every 10 days and I didn't see anyone for up to 2 months at a time.

OP, I really hope you get the support you need and if possible, ask for a different sw and definitely have someone in meetings with you who can take notes for you to read back on afterwards. Sometimes it's hard to take it all in at the time and they use that to trip you up later on.

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 21:47

@SmileEachDay Sorry, let me explain further.

Neglect is parenting style, in which a parent doesn't engage with their children and shows little interest. If I went to the park with my kids, sat having an argument with the boyfriend on the phone. I'm not really keeping an eye on the kids and I'm not really thinking about them. I'm too wrapped up in whatever else is going on in my life. My 3 year old could be doing a runner, for all I know. I'm not engaging with the kids and letting them do their own thing.

Another parenting style is shown by love, but total lack of boundaries/ control. So if I took my elder child to the park and let her bully another child and steal their sweets. If I was this type of parent, I would allow her to dominate and let her do what she wants.

Another is a balanced, or authoritative parent. They love their children, but use appropriate boundaries. In the park situation, the child would be made to take turns and appropriate discipline used if she stole sweets. This is the best parenting style.

The final style is authoritarian parenting. This is where there's a lack of warmth and too much discipline. So if your child shoved another kid and took their sweets, you would go over the top and scold them for it. So the boundaries are too strict. I suppose a little bit children should been seen and not heard.

OP posts:
Chattybum · 14/11/2019 21:48

@RuffleCrow Christ! If that was the case
andvthat was all it takes 95% of children in the UK would be in foster care. Get a grip!

mathanxiety · 14/11/2019 21:50

1. I left the refuge myself, because it was poorly controlled. I didn’t get kicked out, but thank for jumping to your own conclusion.
Were you kicked out of the refuge though?
Did you engage in a conflict with another resident?
If you left voluntarily, did you try to get the poor control rectified before making the decision to move?
If you left voluntarily, did you pause to think of the effect on the children of so many moves in such a short time?
Were you pregnant at the time you moved?
Did you have a young baby?
A lot of parents would stay put because they understand that moving a lot has a bad impact on children. Or they would wait until they could find a place that didn't have rising damp and mould and was in a dangerous neighbourhood.

2. I didn’t actually apply for another house, the offer was withdrawn. There’s a difference, do you understand the homeless system? I never hinted at it being a bigger plot. Why would you even think that? How could it even be a bigger plot? What?
You have indeed hinted that everyone is against you.
Your narrative here involves lots of powerlessness on your part and forces outside of your control lined up against you. Even agents who are supposed to have your interests at heart are inadequate (Tenancy Support, solicitors) or hostile (HVs).

You really, really need to try to understand how you are coming across here. They things that jump out at posters here are also jumping out at the SWs, so you need to pay attention to what people here are saying when they try to point out how you are giving a poor impression. It's not people trying to get at you just for the heck of it.

3. Well yeah, when health visitors treat you like absolute pond life, they’re not actually being supportive. When they base their opinions on the one I made a complaint against, then that’s hugely unfair. There isn’t any need for racism. She shouldn’t have been offensive.
Here is a thing that jumps out - the accusation of racism and offensiveness, as a result of which you have gone through a lot of HVs.
Because of that, you come across to SWs as someone likely to be non-compliant with them, and much more importantly, someone who puts her own feelings ahead of her children's need for consistency in monitoring.
If you depend on the HV for an autism assessment referral, and if that referral is something you care about, you need to smile politely at the HV, get over yourself, and keep on plugging for that assessment referral.
Or take matters into your own hands and go to the GP to get that referral.

4. A good amount of legal aid solicitors are piss poor. You don’t have to fight too hard when you’re automatically getting the money. My 2nd didn’t give me any advice at all, she just said that I’d be ok.
More chopping and changing with the solicitors. This looks very bad too.
Did you ask the 2nd solicitor to explain what she meant?
Legal Aid solicitors work on child welfare/ SS cases pretty much 100% of the time. They have a lot of expertise, and they have their professional regulator and a judge breathing down their neck.

Getting your back up about the fact that they are paid automatically and therefore not motivated to do good work makes you look bad partly because it can easily be noted that you refused to work with the HVs too, but mainly because going through a lot of people who have training and expertise makes you look suspicious of everyone, in denial about the problems, and prone to thinking everyone is against you and you are being let down by The System. You deny that you feel there is a conspiracy against you but you keep on revealing what you are thinking and feeling here, in your own words.

Can you understand what it looks like to SWs when neither the HVs nor the solicitors are up to your standards?
It looks like someone given HV and solicitor services who is letting her feelings get in the way of effective co-operation with her children's welfare as the ultimate goal, someone who doesn't listen and isn't compliant.

Worst of all, you come across as someone who has anger issues or a very low frustration threshold, who allows those elements to get in the way of the welfare of her children/ someone who insists on special treatment for herself and isn't putting her children's welfare first.

5. How am I supposed to know what to do? I’m not a mind reader. I’ve done the psychological assessment. The other 2 require ss, which they are dragging their feet about and I keep asking when they’re going to start.
You really should have some idea of the problems, and actually, you do because you have mentioned them several times now. The issue is that you deny the problems.

What letters have you received from SS from the start of proceedings up to now?
What exactly has been said in these letters?
What meetings have you attended with SS up to now?
What exactly has been said in these meetings?
Do you have a list of instructions anywhere?
Do you have a list of their concerns anywhere?
Do you have a log of communications with them?

You have hinted that they are concerned about diet and mess and the development lag. You deny both the diet and the mess concerns.
However, you mention mould, rising damp, lots of soft toys and too much clothing, disposing of lots of clutter since SS have been involved, and changing bedding daily. So what is it - mess or tidy home?
You also say you are now in emergency housing. What are the criteria for the awarding of emergency housing?

Wrt development lag, you have dug in and insisted the problem is autism, but you have also refused to work with the people who could have been persuaded to get a referral for assessment, and you haven't taken the initiative of going to a GP who might have been able to give you a referral. You have not worked with the HV who said the problem isn't autism.

You do not mention a nursery - has older DD been to nursery?
A nursery would provide a stimulating environment and also backup for your autism theory.

You do not mention any visits to a GP - are the children registered with a GP and have they ever been seen by one?

You are really fighting hard that the powers that be have refused to do the autism referral - you are denying all concerns SS have about living conditions and diet and conditions related to development lag and trying to make this entire interaction with SS into a case of SS letting your DD down because they won't get an autism referral for her.

You yourself could have made a GP appointment for DD if you had concerns. Why didn't you do that?

When did you first start having concerns about DD's possible autism?
It looks as if you were hostile to the first HV and decided that instead of listening to concerns this HV had, you decided the problem consisted of The System letting you down wrt the referral for assessment, then 'they' were expecting you to take time and spend money on buses to speech therapy appointments, and the problem was not you doing nothing about getting the autism assessment, and living in a mouldy, messy home, your third in a very short time.

Because of all of this, I can guarantee that you are coming across to SS as someone who primarily wants to score points against them and get everyone trying to hold you to account off your back. This is not good.

ForgotAboutThis · 14/11/2019 21:53

OP, in the context of safeguarding neglect doesn't mean that a parent is preoccupied or not interested. It means a parent is failing to meet a child's basic needs. This can be physical, emotional, educational, health. It can a mean not keeping a child safe. Early years neglect can cause life long issues.
You appear to struggle to communicate with professionals involved, and some of that may be down to a communication barrier they are not working to help. There has been some good advice about using an advocate up thread.

Glacecherrychops · 14/11/2019 21:53

Neglect is parenting style, in which a parent doesn't engage with their children and shows little interest. If I went to the park with my kids, sat having an argument with the boyfriend on the phone. I'm not really keeping an eye on the kids and I'm not really thinking about them. I'm too wrapped up in whatever else is going on in my life. My 3 year old could be doing a runner, for all I know. I'm not engaging with the kids and letting them do their own thing.

This is completely wrong.
Neglect is not meeting a child's basic needs. Basic needs being: food, warmth, shelter, hygiene, healthcare, education. Parents not meeting those needs are neglecting their children and putting them at risk. That is neglect.

Having a 'hands off' parenting style is one parenting style, on the background of well cared for children who are not neglected, and have their needs met. It's about disciple and how the children are brought up. It is nothing to do with neglect or basic needs. If taken to an extreme, it could mean that children's emotional needs are neglected, but this wouldn't result in a child being removed from their parents.

I suspect you are paying for this child psychology course so you can 'reframe' everything the social workers are telling you, so you don't have tomake meaningful change, ie tidy the house, make proper meals.

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 21:53

@HungryAgain2019 Your sw sounds just like mine. The bad attitude and lack of care. I find it hard too, I can get defensive when they're throwing allegations, but not actually helping my kids in any way. If child protection meetings were more child focused, rather than the blame game, I'm sure matters would be resolved more quickly. A bad and uninterested attitude isn't helpful to anyone, especially where the future of children in their caseload is pretty much in their hands.

OP posts:
prawnsword · 14/11/2019 21:53

Neglect is not a style of parenting. This is where your problem lies. They are telling you how you are parenting is neglectful for X reasons & you are backchatting the SWs insisting this is your parenting style. You were given a list of things that you had to fix in order to not have your kids removed. You didn’t do it, by your own admission did not clean the house & day this is due to it being temporary accomodation. Instead of giving excuses you need to make change. To show you’re listening to their concerns. Your refusal to address their concerns has led to this & until you acknowledge this & work to fix all their concerns you will not regain custody. The choice is up to you.

SmileEachDay · 14/11/2019 21:54

I understand what you are saying OP.

Where would you place yourself in the range of parenting styles you have described?

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 21:59

@Glacecherrychops That's an odd thing to suspect. I've always made proper meals and my house wasn't always tidy, I actually admit this.

By that definition of neglect, my children shouldn't have been removed. I'm stating what the parenting style is. It depends what your idea of a hands off parenting style is, but if you don't show interest in your children or engage with them, that's a neglectful parenting style. I'm not even sure why people have kids if they're not prepared to show an interest.

OP posts:
LIZS · 14/11/2019 22:01

There is little point focussing on the children if the homelife you are offering is not a safe or positive environment. If you cannot do this alone you need to ask for or find support to help you achieve what is being asked of you. Until you prioritise this it is unlikely the situation will change. It also needs to be sustained over a period of time, when is there a case review due?

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 22:02

I try to be authoritative, but sometimes I have been a bit soft. I've addressed this over the last few months and tried to make sure appropriate boundaries are in place.

OP posts:
ForgotAboutThis · 14/11/2019 22:02

This is about parenting styles.
Not providing your children with a safe, healthy, stable environment where they can develop and thrive is neglectful. It is not meeting their basic needs. A parent can love their child passionately and still be neglecting them.

Being a bit lax or a bit strict is not what this is about.

RightyWrongy · 14/11/2019 22:03

Op if you can state exactly what they want you to do, we can help you get a starting point. If you don’t know, can you communicate through email to SS & ask for an action plan?

I understand your getting a lot of grief on here, feel free to PM me if you’d like x

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 22:03

I can't answer that question without outing myself. Positive in what way?

OP posts:
Glacecherrychops · 14/11/2019 22:04

Tobe honest @SeaOfDespair I'm not sure why you are wasting time criticising other peoples parenting styles when your two children have been removed from your care due to neglect.

That's an odd thing to suspect. I've always made proper meals and my house wasn't always tidy, I actually admit this.
It'snot an odd thing to suspect, your children have been removed due to concerns they were dirty, you weren't feeding them properly and your house was a mess.

Do you understand that you won't get your children back if you don't work with the social workers, and keep deflecting all blame/responsibility?

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 22:05

I didn't say it was about parenting styles, I was talking about limitations to the system. But, I digress.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 14/11/2019 22:05

If child protection meetings were more child focused, rather than the blame game, I'm sure matters would be resolved more quickly.
Whether someone frames it as blame or responsibility depends on if they're seeking to play the passive victim or take agency and sort the situation.

Parents have a responsibility for their children's wellbeing and safety.
Being child-focussed means placing the CHILD at the centre (not ignore the role parents play in keeping the child safe).

Discussing what a parent needs to do to ensure their child is safe is about equipping the parent to ensure their child is safe.

Any adult who chooses to see this as a "blame game" is placing their own victimhood complex ahead of the children's welfare and would be a huge red flag to anyone working with children.

HungryAgain2019 · 14/11/2019 22:06

I knew before I opened your thread that there would be posters who will tell you this just does not happen. I believe you. I also believe that in some cases the threshold is too high - baby P and cases like this. But likewise, in cases where there seems to be minimal psycological damage to children, who are often very young, the threshold is way too low and they are taken away and put into placements far too easily. Make of that what you will.

While I was going through my fight for my children there was someone who lives near me who openly admitted to professionals and friends that she pours cold water on her childrens head and grabs and twists their ears to make them behave because her sw told her she couldn't smack them any more. She was only on a cin plan. The difference in our children was that hers had multiple behaviour issues, exclusions and violent outburts and mine didn't. I'm not exactly into conspiracies but that never sat well with me.

SmileEachDay · 14/11/2019 22:07

I try to be authoritative, but sometimes I have been a bit soft

Ok.

Would it be fair to say that life has been chaotic, with lots of moving including into a refuge and that you have struggled to maintain consistent parenting?

Remind me (sorry I can’t immediately see looking back) why there was so much moving?

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 22:08

I'm not sure what I can do about those concerns. I'm not sure how I can 'work with' them, everything becomes circular. My sw has actually admitted she's not seen them dirty, she's admitted she's never seen them hungry, or provided with inappropriate meals.

OP posts:
LIZS · 14/11/2019 22:10

Positive as in safe, hygienic, stable, gas/electric/water on, food in cupboards, furnished, clean/tidy, supplied with appropriate clothing, bedding, toys, safety equipment, with an interested and engaged parent who seeks opportunities to develop dc and instills appropriate boundaries and behaviour.