Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

Chaotic, possibly. I have always tried to be consistent as possible. I maintained a routine.

Antisocial behaviour from neighbours and a relative.

I suspect everything becomes circular because they give you evidence, you deny it, they give you more evidence and examples, you deny them, and round it goes...

Please OP, listen when people tell you that this is nothing to do with parenting styles. Children are not removed due to differing parenting styles and when a child is placed under a CP plan or removed due to neglect this is absolutely not about free range or hands off parenting. It's been made very clear that this is about meeting the basic needs of your children.

SeaOfDespair
You need to stop, take a step back, take off the "I'm a poor victim" glasses and critically think about the situation.

Based on what you've put throughout this thread, your whole approach appears to be denial and a number of things would be safeguarding concerns in any place I've worked and under all training I've done.

Start from there and if you're interested in moving forward it's probably best to ignore the "pat on the back for you OP, evil social workers" replies.

Objectively, you're trying to claim that:
Multiple social workers all happen to have made up concerns based on no evidence or real reasons
Multiple health visitors have also made up concerns based on no evidence or real reasons
That a judge has looked at all the evidence in front of them, where the threshold for going into care is high and has had the wool pulled over their eyes by multiple different professionals in different lines of work
That multiple solicitors have also been incompetent and weren't bothering with your case

Are there problems in the system? Yes.
Is it plausible that anyone could encounter an awkward or unhelpful health visitor or social worker? Yes.
Is it likely that multiple people in different professions would all come up with an agenda where the outcome is putting children into care knowing the effects of putting children into care? Not really.

I honestly think you need to step back from the thread because you're clinging more to the posters with their "me too they snatch kids for no reason" than some otherwise good advice, speak to a solicitor offline and take appropriate advice on what is required from you to demonstrate you are addressing their concerns. To do that though you will have to admit to yourself and them what the issues are. If you continue with your current approach, neglect is a parenting style, them Vs me then you're going to sabotage your chances because the message you'll be sending is "this parent doesn't understand how to safeguard her children".

I want it to work out for you OP, I really do, but I think you need specialist offline advice

What you perceive as moving goalposts is probably a step by step process, as you cannot achieve everything at once. It will become circular if you try to argue the toss, such as about the parenting styles you have "learnt" about rather than deal with each step. If you are unclear ask for specific targets with a timeframe for review. A tidy up is only dealing with one symptom of the chaos, not facing the underlying problem and finding ways to avoid it in future, for example.

You mentioned lots of toot on your kitchen surfaces. Perhaps the SW noticed and noted that it would be very hard to cook healthy meals in your kitchen IN ADDITION to your child saying about no fruit/veg whatever it was.

Perhaps the social worker noted the huge amount of stuffed toys but no toys that help cognitive development and summonsed that this could contribute to your child's development delay.

Perhaps they noticed mould, mess and frequent house moves and issues with other people and decided that your lifestyle was chaotic and you were not providing the basics of a suitable homelife.

On their own these factors are relatively minor but put together they create a picture that indicates an unhealthy environment for a child.

The place is always clean, bills always paid, too much food in the cupboards, all furniture is here, they have too much appropriate clothing, loads of bedding and fresh every day, lots of toys, I have no idea about safety equipment. We have smoke alarms, a thermometer, fire doors, cables out of the way etc.,

I have always paid attention to the girls and given them plenty of time to develop and encourage their skills. I get involved in what they're doing and have been there. Even when I've been stressed, I make sure that I don't check out on them. I try my best to set reasonable boundaries, that are age appropriate. Some things are to be ignored, but any sort of hitting or flinging has appropriate boundaries put in place. I did use a coloured card system. A green face is good behaviour and I'd encourage this and praise her. A yellow face is a warning, that the behaviour isn't very good. A red face is unacceptable behaviour and she's usually put in a chair for a couple of minutes. The getting down to her level approach doesn't work well with her.

OP I believe you

You need to get specialist legal advice though and do a subject access request at each settimy you are known at including with the local authority

*setting

Former social worker here. OP, with the greatest of respect, you need to get out of your own head and focus on taking practical steps. Trying to intellectualism this is the equivalent of fiddling whilst Rome burns. There is no point in getting into an argument with SS over the definition of neglect; you will NOT win. If you persist in failing to acknowledge SS concerns you will lose your daughters and forced adoption will rapidly loom as your new reality. You need to swallow your pride, bite your tongue and tell SS that you've had time to reflect and that you accept their concerns. Engage with the process and jump through every hoop that will help you be the parent your girls need. I know it's not easy and believe me, I realise that in many ways the system is broken but you can't fix it and the energy you are spending raging against it needs to be channelled into getting your girls back.

I didn't say they were removed for parenting styles, my post was misinterpreted. Nor have I argued about parenting styles with the local authority.

@Chillyourbeans excellent advice

Great advice Chillyourbeans

Given how circular this thread is I can see how the process with health visitors and social workers is becoming circular. The only person who can decide to stop the circular process is the OP, but they need to accept the issues.

Someone above likened the process to a driving test.

There is no point arguing with the test examiner what the meaning of a speed limit is, or arguing that you did indicate when they said you didn’t. You need to follow the process, you will never win.

The same is true here. There is no point arguing. Accept what they are saying and change, or don’t and lose your children. That’s it, really

How can you say your kitchen is always clean, yet admit it had a “bit of clutter” and was flagged by SW as being a problem area ?

OP I ask this kindly...do you have issues with hoarding ? Do you not “see” the mess? Do you have visitors to your home & what do they say about the tidy ness?

You say it’s a “bit of clutter” however it could be that the state of the house is the main issue. You’ve tried to tidy & it wasn’t good enough for them. Can you get cleaners in? You could post some pics of your main areas & we can give you a more honest opinion about the clutter.

Why is there clutter ? You need to be cleaning solidly right now & removing clutter. This will show SW you are making a serious effort. Watch some Marie kondo.

Neglect could be the house is at unhygienic levels. So the children could be bathed, fed etc but if the bathroom is grimey, food prepared in unhygienic conditions it would still constitute neglect. If the washed clothes are in piles & get mixed with the dirty clothes, the children could have a smell to them.

The social worker could well admit that they are never hungry & always look clean. But that doesn’t mean in their opinion enough of the children’s needs are being met.

I'm very sorry you are going through this but what lead to your children to be removed? Regardless of what you do now, it's what you should have done before hand! I swear I'm not judging. What you really need to do is to focus on getting your act together. I would come to believe that your house was more than jus "messy"... There is more to your story.

SS job is to protect the child. If they have requests you do need to fulfil them! I doubt they just removed without a court order. How did "they' remove them without one? 🤔
My mother had 1 whole year to just clean up her house (she run the brush over it- think 'how clean is your house' this is how she lived) on top communicating better without emotional abuse, She "tried". I know my mother- she did not try!
4 years later (shes in foster care) and she still hasn't got her DD back. But it's the systems fault (my mother's opinion) When in actual fact, the system has helped her DD get 9 GCSES A* and Bs. Helped her mental health, taught her basic hygiene. Also, helped her with savings etc. So much more ...

When I was 6 I was put on a child protection register. Was on and off until I was 16. I wish I was put into care! There is 14 years a difference between myself and sister.

However, the social worker that was over my case when I was 14 was an absolute wanker! My case got him a promotion! Low and behold few years later he was in court for lying about families. He got a slap on the wrist, moved to a different board! Yet, a child was left traumatised! In saying that, out of about 10 social workers i had he was the only bollocks I came across. That was 15yrs ago.

Maybe my posts weren't too helpful but I was just trying to let you know that what you are saying is not totally unbelievable to people who have been there. We can't all be liars who are burying their heads in the sand and denying their help. There's always 2 groups with these issues, the ones who know first hand how flawed the system is, and the ones can't possibly unserstand because they are either decent social workers or haven't been through it.

Or hungry, we've worked within the system surrounding children and fully accept there's some useless people out there in any service, but the chances of someone happening to stumble upon, say, half a dozen to a dozen people who are all utterly incompetent with an agenda and conspiracy to remove children for no reason are infinitely less likely than someone who denies issues and thinks the system is out to get them.

Op would you say untidy homeless accommodation is good enough for your children?

If taxis were provided, did you ever miss an appointment before?

You say their dad wasn't around but if your kid is about 1 then it hasn't been that long.

Separating any professional opinion have your children honestly had a good enough journey?

@HungryAgain2019 is it possible that the two groups have different versions of what they consider a 'normal' homelife? For example the group who don't think social workers are evil child snatchers have views more in line with with the social workers than the group who do?

I find OPs back story and recent events quite extreme for example, although some wouldn't? Could this explain the difference?

OP, why do YOU think the children were removed?

@Chattybum absolutely. Am from a relatively well off background but this year due to dv found myself at a women’s shelter. When you see people who are really at the bottom, come from vastly different background to yourself it showed me how radically different our barometers are for what we consider normalcy.

@LolaSmiles I appreciate what you are saying and I'm not saying they always get it wrong, but sometimes other professionals will agree with the sw just by reading their reports. Sometimes they haven't even met the parent/s, and if that report is based on a lot of truth bending or just plain lying then yes, they have all been incompetent in that case.

@PaisleyPrintz, I agree 100% with your thoughts on DV and perpetrator access to children.

Have been in that situation myself, or should I say my children have. I warned everyone, from mediators involved in the discussions of custody and visitation, to my lawyer, to the judge, but all my concerns were brushed aside. ExH persuaded everyone that he was a mild mannered professional who wouldn't hurt a fly. When he finally broke cover the two DCs in his care suffered immense trauma. And then he filed a motion for contempt of court against me for calling the police when one of the DCs managed to contact me during the incident, and also filed for a protection order against me for interfering with his visitation. I had to go to court and defend myself against both motions and allegations. It took ages, and I had to represent myself while exH is himself a lawyer, but I won.

@Glacecherrychops In my experience, when DV is proven contact between the perpetrator and children is stopped immediately.
The crux is 'proven'. In my experience and observation, the bar of proof that is required and the level of abuse that has to be proven is egregiously high. A perpetrator would have to have pretty much murdered one of his own children before the courts would admit there might be an issue with contact.

I live in the US, but trends are not that different in the UK. The assumption that children need contact with their father, and will actually suffer great harm if they don't have a father in their lives - any father, no matter how rotten or violent or abusive he is - remains the foundation of thought on custody and visitation arrangements