Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

I've literally got about 3 boxes full of books and toys. They've got instruments, puzzles, toys to help manual dexterity, dressing up clothes, a tablet with lots of games (plus headphones), building blocks, a kiddie kitchen set with mini cooking utensils. These are just without looking too hard. Oh and many dollies, lots of ethnically appropriate ones. My elder one had a dolly pram, which went with her. I put a big bag of their toys together, but still lots here. My eldest loves her books, especially those ones that say, "that's not my...".

I've recently had to give away a box, because there was so many things that didn't get played with. Lots of little baby ones too. Quite a few soft toys had to go, which was quite sad, as they were so adorable.

My elder one also has colouring books, pencils, sketch books and paint. I've got some kiddy clay somewhere, along with little bits and bobs, such as glitter tubes. The actual clutter was clothes and toys. I prioritised buying them something, rather than myself. I actually felt guilty about buying myself some boots a few weeks ago.

I don't understand how the child psychologist will help, if you aren't following their other recommendations?

What are they helping with?

Understanding child development, attachments etc.,

I think looking at how it looks from a practitioner point of view paints a less than ideal situation (and I appreciate that circumstances may have led to some things but I'm just trying to.demonstrate) ;

• you've had 4 hv in 18 months ( I appreciate one was removed from case)
• you've had 3 (I think) solicitors
• you've had multiple moves including leaving a refuge which is supposed to be a place of safety
• you have repeatedly dismissed concerns and said that youwould agree but not really just to keep them happy.

That doesnt make you look like someone who is willing to work with services in order to ensure your children are safe and well cared for (again, I know you refute the allegations but social care obviously have a different opinion).

Your posts also seem to highlight that you may have a negative stated by x number of professionals but as soon as one person disagrees that is the opinion you hold on to.

Realistically if you want a chance of getting your children back you need to consider practitioners concerns and work with them to minimise risk.

There should be a written plan from the cp conferences that lays out agreed actions and who is responsible for them which can guide you.

It is fantastic that you are accessing extra courses but are they actually covering the things that social care want you to focus on?

Regarding your older child and possible asd, could you perhaps ask hat a gp reviews and makes a referral onwards if felt necessary?

Theres a lot of anti social care and hv feeling on mumsnet and I'm not sure those responses are beneficial to you, they dont change the situation. Also social care dont make the decision to remove a child, a judge does and they have very high thresholds.

But is that the best use of your money?
Most parents haven't been on a psychology course about child development and attachment, and they can still meet their children's needs. You need to be focusing on the things SS are telling you, doing a course they haven't recommended won't help you.

Lots of information is available over the internet about attachment and child development for free

When you were issued PLO proceedings - (the stage of all the meetings before the children were removed) you had to legally be given a letter that says

Take this to a solicitor now.
We intend to start PLO proceedings.
These are our concerns: they list concerns and examples.

The solicitor in ALL cases where children are in care works for free.

Find a solicitor who is a family solicitor - preferably one who only deals with SS cases.

Then read the list of concerns and address them.

The house is mouldy - I have had the mould treated
The house is cold - I am now turning the heating on via thermastat
Mum needs a taxi to get to medicals - I am now taking the bus to all appointments and have a paper copy of our local bus timetable.

etc
etc

You have to demonstrate you have read and understood the concerns. Do not dismiss them even if you think they are rubbish - you have to show how you are changing.

Most social workers want to work with families to make things better.

meow1989
I agree with you.

Having come back to the thread and caught up, I stand by what I said at the start: the OP needs to spend time being totally honest with relevant professionals offline and they're probably better getting the thread deleted as I'm not sure how helpful it will be for them in terms of practically resolving the issues.

As it stands, this thread will allow them to cling to the idea that almost every single professional they've encountered has some agenda against them when the more the thread runs, the more the OP seems understandably stressed by this horrible situation but not in a position to reflect and engage with the process.

Op, children are not removed because their mother is messy.
One bad HV I could believe but you think every professional you've met (including the judge) is conspiring against you? To what end? Who benefits when children are removed for no reason? It costs the state an absolute fortune.

Did any of you ever see a documentary series a few years backed " damned if you do?"
It was following social workers in Bristol doing child protection work.

There were several cases but one which stuck with me was the case of a little boy called Toby. He lived with his mum and dad and their pet dog. He was about 3 and non verbal. His parents really resented the social services intervention and felt that they were doing their best and were good parents. They thought the social workers were against them, they were being targeted etc
They believed that their child was non verbal because they had both been late speakers.

In actual fact the child was never properly spoken to or interacted with. He didn't have a bed or a toothbrush and the floor on which he played was soaked in dog piss and shit. His needs were not being met at all.

Once he went into foster care he came on in leaps and bounds.

Another family felt that they too were good parents and were doing everything that was asked. Dad was in prison and mum was a heroin addict.

I have seen it in real life. Parents go on about how much they love their kids but hen fail to meet anything but the most basic needs

To reassure you, OP, it's quite easy for a mobile child to bruise their face. I wouldn't be overly concerned about that.

The PLO went over old ground. There didn't seem to be any resolution. They asked for a psychological assessment and I agreed to it, they didn't feel that I did. Then I was asked if I agree with their concerns. I could only tell the truth to that.

I have spent many occasions having discussions with them. It becomes circular. Concerns are listed, but no real resolution is. By the way, 'engage' and 'reflect' are meaningless, they're vague buzzwords.

I am not a heroin addict. My children haven't ever slept on the floor. I'm not a criminal. My elder daughter had her teeth brushed twice a day. The title of such a documentary tells one what its intentions are. Comparing my girls to some silly programme isn't helpful.

A few replies to the post proves that, unfortunately, this isn't just happening to my girls and I.

Is your MP any good? Could they possibly direct you to the best help, as an autistic parent? I really feel for you. Circular discussions like that, when your own children are kept from you, must be incredibly infuriating.

I am saying that many many parents of children who have been taken into care will protest their innocence while not seeing their own failings.

Why are you seeing a child psychologist? Surely your money would be better spent seeing an adult therapist that could help you work on your own issues? If you wanted to understand more about child psychology you'd be better off signing up for a educational course on it?

I'm very surprised that SS haven't mentioned forced adoption yet given the young ages of your children. I'd be prepared for that as their next move.

How about those who aren't drug addled or don't treat their kids like an abandoned puppy? There are always going to be bad examples. It's always easy to praise authority when they deal with something effectively, but not enough responsibility when they don't. We live in a society that often sees children as a burden. My girls are my life, not a burden.

An adult therapist for what - autism? The child psychologist does an educational course. I'm not sure why his good work is being discredited.

Bigearringsbigsmile

SS do cover each others backs. They probably use a carrot and stick methods with their co workers and underlings.

I will never believe that an SS officer is better than a non pro person. they are jsut as messed up as anyone else. And often they are more messed up than anyone I have ever been friends with.
Each area office has it's own ideology and can differ a lot even in the same county but diff part of.

I wish the posters attacking the OP would just sod off and do something else.
You are not helping. Are you all SS yourselves? Is that why you are picking OP to pieces?

If you can't be constructive then go away. Telling her things she already does is a waste of the thread.

I am prepared for the suggestion of forced adoption. There doesn't seem to be much clarity on what their longer term intentions are.

No, an adult therapist to help you come to terms with the trauma of your children being removed, perhaps also to help you to understand what's led you to where you are in the first place.

I just find it odd that you'd see a child psychologist rather than doing one of the very many - and sometimes free - courses that are available in loads of colleges and adult learning centres.

@goldfinchfan they are people with a degree. When I've been researching social work degrees, they don't seem to learn about attachments or parenting styles in huge detail. The categories seem to be used as an umbrella, rather than reflect what they actually are. I've learned a lot about parenting styles recently. The term 'neglect' seems to be used inappropriately, but as something that doesn't fit in their actual abuse categories.

OP
From PLO the situation escalated and your children were removed.

What concerns are listed? Were they removed under the category of Neglect. (its the most common reason to remove)

Whether you agree with them or not those are the concerns you must now rectify to get your girls back.
You will not get them back unless you address those concerns.

Find a good solicitor who is used to SS cases and stop denying there is a problem.
Like it or lump it this is the challenge you now face.
How you turn around the situation dictates whether you get your girls back - not SS.
A judge will look at the evidence provided, you need to start building yours.

OP
Neglect is an 'actual abuse category' in itself...

I am struggling to understand what had happened here because even if we accept that the social workers and the health visitors have been working against you and you have been discriminated against, they are not the ones who have made the final decision to remove the children under a care order. That would be the role of the courts and it's very hard to get a court order to remove children. They are not colluding with social workers and a local authority would be pulled up harshly if they were trying to remove children without valid reasons.

I'm not saying you're not telling the truth OP but I wonder if you fully understand the proceedings and the reasons that your children were removed. I really hope you do get some support from an independent advocate because it's so important that you have someone who is there for you to help support you and understand this process and what is being asked of you.

I really don't believe that Mumsnet or any other forum is the best place to get advice and support. We don't know your case, we haven't seen the legal letters and papers and we aren't party to the discussions you've been having.

I'm not sure where you live, but there aren't that many courses that are specific to child psychology. The adult learning centres tend to offer arts & crafts, gardening and languages. I know one offers yoga, but I'm not sure a flexible body will help in meetings.