Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

[SeaOfDespair]

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

OP I've read your thread and did notice a few things. One of them is that you explained your routine but you have a 3 year old who didn't seem to attend any play groups or other childcare settings particularly as you are on the autistic spectrum yourself. I know from my own family and friends who have various jobs working with children that involve safeguarding this is a red flag.

As many PP said you need to play the game, while you may have been treated unfairly the real victims in this are your children.

Anyway please contact the Family Rights Group and Mencap asap.

I have no experience of social services bar the daughter of a friend of mine works for them and has said that although she enjoyed and welcomed her 'alternative' childhood (think hippy communes, travelling, off grid for some, and then more settled later) she knew people in her unit who would remove a child if they came across it as there is a very white middle class attitude as to where the bar of normal is set.

However I DO have experience of being bullied and disbelieved by a professional regarding my daughter over school refusal, and her telling me I would 'get the diagnosis I paid for' if I went private for an ASD assessment. A woman who also threatened me with non attendance orders, told me I was a useless mother and too soft, told me to drop my 12 year old child in her PJs and 'let her deal with her' and threatened me with social services because I wouldnt jump through her hoops.
And my daughter DID have ASD (private and NHS diagnosis made later that year) and so did I.
I was lucky that because my daughter also had another condition I had years and years of 'no concerns and does everything needed' to back me up.
I also had a health visitor calling me paranoid and then refusing to see me when I complained about her back when my daughter was a baby - consequently she did have a serious illness which the HV missed to again I was luckily off the hook
People in power dont like people who challenge their authority at times, and some can be vindictive.
people with ASD can also be quite abrupt and rub people up the wrong way. we also need clear instructions. We also will defend ourselves if we know we are telling the truth. So yes, I can believe this and I can absolutely understand where this is coming from.

I feel I have to post something here. I get completely where you're coming from OP.
I have had dealings with SS. I won't go into detail on here but it was the most frightening experience of my life.
It begun with an arrest of my DH. He wasn't guilty of what he was charged with but it took a year for him to prove his innocence.
Social services are hell bent on getting you to 'admit' the risk posed. Even if you don't agree with the risk, the more you say you don't believe there is a risk the more involved they become.
You basically have to lie and admit the risk in order to be seen to be 'working with them' it was the closest I'll ever come to understanding life under some communism dictatorship.
The reports were full of errors, mis-quotations that were never corrected. By sticking up for my husband i was considered to be brainwashed and unable to be a protecting factor.
The social workers were woefully under qualified to understand my husbands mental health issues and quite frankly didn't care.
My son was exceeding all milestones and presented healthy/clean etc but had he been developmentally delayed I fear the outcome would have been different. They were constantly looking for 'risk'. We had to prove we weren't a risk, but it was never clear as to how we could do that.
It was honestly utter hell. Once you are on the register it is almost impossible to get off, it's like a rollercoaster of hell.

In the end the only way for my husband to return home was if he was 'risk assessed' but they refused to fund a risk assessment. Weeks became months of him living on friends floors and sofas. We eventually offered to pay 3k for a professionally risk assessment. They said we had to BOTH be risk assessed as I needed to be a 'protective factor' it cost 5.5k!!!

He returned home after ONE YEAR. One whole year away from us, we got into debt paying 2 lots of accommodation and fees.
There was never anything wrong with the care we provided, in fact DS was assessed as being nearly a year ahead in some areas and my husband was completely innocent.

We are a normal middle class family with supportive friends both emotionally and financially. We have 4 degrees between us yet we were stuck in this fucking awful loop that we couldn't get out of. My heart bleeds for those people who are put in that position but don't have the support that we had, and to have to deal with the system as an autistic person and be treated like scum.

Anyone who thinks 'theres no smoke without fire' honestly, there must be so many more stories out there like mine that prove that is an incorrect assumption.

After reading some of the comments I’m guessing this sort of thing can happen, my advice - do whatever it is they ask you to. Providing you do it no matter how ridiculous they have nothing to go off.

Get a lawyer Op it’ll shorten this process for you as a trained professional will be able to see through bullshit as they have no emotional connect like you do. Excuse me for saying this but on the basis as to what you have told us, SS are taking advantage of your current mental state. Get a good lawyer who specialises in family law. This could be the difference between getting your kids back or not x

@Cailleachian
Do you know the Op personally? If not, then how on earth do you know what these children are going through?
FWIW, my 13 month old grandchild is constantly covered in bruises as he's so clumsy!
A child who is being emotionally, physically , sexually abused will suffer far more life long consequences than one who is removed from their abusive parent at a very young age. No one here knows the reality of this case. You're jumping to massive conclusions on the say so of a stranger who's giving a very garbled story on an Internet forum.

No, I dont know the OP personally.

Of course some children are clumsy and toddlerhood involves bumps and bashes, but that is still a great deal and a part of the body that isnt usually bruised - bruises on arms and legs but bruises on face are worrying and suggests either a problem with balance, a lack of supervision or rough handling.

I am surprised that people have not picked up more on this., actually, as the only time that actual demonstrative harm is evidenced has been in the month since they were removed. Of course there might be an innocent explaination, but as a mother, if my child was turning up from nursery on 4 occasions within a month with bruising to their face, I'd be asking some serious questions about the quality of the care that the nursery were providing.

Which is why I asked the OP what explanation had been given for the bruising.

I’ve contacted FRG and Mencap. Someone from Mencap will contact me tomorrow, the lady over the phone said my local coordinator is very experienced at dealing with safeguarding issues.

I gave NAS a quick call and I’ve been working through a few agencies. The ones so far have needed a referral through adult services.

Sounds promising OP.

All the best

@prawnsword how would you know that? How would you know that my flat is a pigsty? How would you know I don’t take them to the doctors? Who the hell said anything about dishes rotting in the sink? I’m really not sure what your problem is, but your reply really isn’t helpful.

Kids are clumsy, that’s why I supervise them, when they’re in my care. I’m not saying you can prevent every tumble, but how would she get bruising on her face?

The reason was that she thinks she can walk and falls over. I haven’t seen bruising anywhere else, which is why it makes me a bit concerned.

@RightyWrongy I’ve got a lawyer, but he tells me to go along with them. It’s very difficult when we don’t work well as a team. I’ll let them know that I’ve been doing my own parenting courses and have been seeing a private child psychologist. Hopefully that will make them see that I’m serious about getting the girls back.

What reason would I have to post this, if not the truth? I don’t have any particular motivations beyond getting my girls back. I wish that it wasn’t the case, as it would be easier to deal with. I wish I did make major mistakes that I could put right. I’m not a perfect parent and I do have faults, but I’ve done my best for my daughters. I thoroughly love them. I thoroughly want them back in my case.

This isn’t any easy situation. If I didn’t care, I would have given them up myself. If I felt I couldn’t cope with them, I’d have given them up to someone that could. Kids are hard work, but I must have been doing something right, as my youngest one was thriving in my care.

Sorry righty, I meant to post the bottom bit as a reply to someone else.

No that’s okay, I understood that was for another PP.

Maybe consider changing your lawyer if you feel you are not achieving what you need to achieve here?

Also don’t take any notice of other PP making rude & abusive comments!

I'm not clear why you are paying to see a child psychologist and private parenting courses. There will be some courses on offer via your local Children's Centre and you may learn more from a group setting. Do you have a gp now who could refer you for counselling?

I’m not sure what you mean by children’s centre. Are you referring to something like Surestart? It’s flying start here and they only operate in deprived areas and mostly limited services from a community centre. They also only offer outreach based on your postcode. None of my town is covered.

So rather than not bothering and making excusing, I’m paying the money. If it returns my girls to my care, it will be worth every penny. If not, then at least I’ve tried. I’m currently thinking of more ideas, as well as trying to seek support.

As for counselling, we are looking at an 18 month waiting list. My GP said that any sort of mental health support around here is underfunded and overstretched.

But why a Child Psychologist? If you can afford to pay then could you find a more suitable source of support or legal representation. Usually resources of Surestart/similar are also available to those deemed vulnerable or in need of support, by referral.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've read enough.

I was going to ask if you were autistic before I got to the initial post mentioning it.

There is systemic discrimination against autistic mothers by authorities. Anyone who does not acknowledge and understand that should not be insisting "there must be more to it" than the OP says.

Inform yourselves: network.autism.org.uk/forum-discussion/widespread-discrimination-against-autistic-mothers-autism-parents

tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CCPR/Shared%20Documents/GBR/INT_CCPR_CSS_GBR_20656_E.pdf

I am autistic. My abusive ex went to family court about contact (originally, though his demands expanded). He got legal aid and I didn't.

Social services became involved. They decided I was emotionally abusive and neglectful. Their concerns were along the lines of my daughter sometimes having dirty nails. And they criticised me for answering the questions they asked me when she was in the room - was it some kind of test?! If I'd refused to answer they would have said I wasn't co-operating.

They put her on a Child Protection Plan which had no goals on it. So although I complied with what they wanted such as seeing a family support worker (who made my home stink of smoke and had nothing useful to say), there was nothing I could actually do to get off the plan.

They also recommended that she be sent 150 miles away to live with my ex.

The only professional involved in the process who actually knew my daughter was her forest school teacher, who voted against her being put on the CP plan. But everyone else present (who never met any of us before or since; they were just random representatives from the police, school nurse service, etc) automatically voted with the social worker (the first of three we had during the process, and who'd only been practising a year).

While she was on the CP plan, I wasn't allowed to leave her with any adult SS hadn't pre-approved (including a police check), because if they're on a CP plan your judgement is considered too bad to choose appropriate carers.

They only checked me, my ex, and my current partner. They said I could ask for friends to be checked so I could leave her with someone, which I did, for two friends, but they didn't do it. And you can't take the child to the meetings (not even to the building), so my partner had to take loads of time off work to look after her for court dates and SS meetings.

They also tried to tell me I wasn't allowed to home educate a child on a CP plan, which is not true, but the LA had put it in their policy. So then the education team got involved to assess my provision (which is over-stepping their boundaries, but I complied with that too).

They just left her on the CP plan until the court process finished, then downgraded to Child in Need, then left us alone eventually. Without me having changed anything about my parenting, because there was nothing wrong with it in the first place!

Fortunately we had a decent Cafcass officer who didn't agree with their recommendations, and the judge did not order what SS wanted.

But if not for her, or if there had been racism involved too (or more racism; there might have been some level of that as although I appear white, I am mixed-race and don't have a standard British name), I might well have ended up in the OP's situation too.

It's purely based on postcode around here. I asked a couple of months ago to join one of their courses, that looked very beneficial. They said no, as they don't get funding for people based out of their remit.

The child psychologist is doing a course with me. He's not cheap, but he's less than £50 per session. The solicitors which offer family law without legal aid would cost hundreds, if not thousands. I don't know how good they are, otherwise I would borrow money from a relative.

Have you thought about volunteering at a local playgroup so that you can study interactions between other mums and their children. Perhaps, if you didn't have a good upbringing yourself, you may be unaware of some aspects of parenting and might not even realize. Re the vagueness issue re social services etc, I think that it you question it, you will only come across as reluctant to use your own initiative or engage. They may being deliberately vague (i.e. you need to have a cleaner house, rather than being specific) in order to test your initiative. Some aspects of parenting shouldn't need explaining. If they do mention something really vague though, perhaps you could simply ask for clarification. Also, don't just wait for instructions, use your initiative. Look on Freecycle for children's toys, puzzles and books. You can look for nice children's decor etc. Making your house clean, comfortable and homely will demonstrate that you are coping. If you buy or get hold of educational books etc for your older daughter (particularly for a year or two ahead), it will demonstrate that you are thinking and planning ahead to the future. 3 is too young to make a firm diagnosis of autism (most educational institutes won't assess them until they are a little older). You may well be right, but, right now you're just going to have to keep your opinions to yourself a little more and appear a little more compliant.

@CorBlimeyGovenor when SS are determined to find fault, it doesn't matter what you do as they will criticise it somehow. E.g. buying books a year or so ahead could also be framed as the OP not understanding her child's needs as they aren't suitable for her yet.

@rosiejaune I'm really sorry that you had to go through a similar thing. My daughters are mixed race and half of my family is from another country.

Unfortunately, the cafcass guardian had made her mind up before she met me. She doesn't believe that professionals can be untruthful. I'm sure some of them are much more fair.

Surely it boils down to the fact you were on SS radar in the first place.

No smoke without fire and all that..