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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Aibu to think that my kids aren’t coming back?

934 replies

SeaOfDespair · 13/11/2019 21:32

I had my girls removed last month and it’s been a very traumatic experience. My family are so far away, my friends have dwindled away and I’m stuck looking at these 4 walls.

I’m seeing a private child psychologist and doing some work with him. He understands how harsh the system can be. I’m doing 2 different parenting courses online. I’m paying for all of this myself and has been a bit of a struggle recently.

My solicitor just tells me to go along with whatever they want. I’ve ticked one thing off the list, but they’re not forthcoming with starting their own assessments. Social worker is either sick, or can’t be bothered.

My youngest has arrived to contact with bruising to her face 4 times. She is cruising, but never managed to be bruised within my care. My elder one seems sort of happy, but is having a lot of tantrums and isn’t able to communicate with me.

From them wanting to keep them at home on an order, their original intentions until the court hearing, to pretending I don’t exist. They didn’t even turn up to the meeting last week. No apology given. No notification of cancellation.

From a case of closing ranks to keeping the case open, it never did surprise me that they applied for a court order. My social worker’s reasoning? I don’t agree with their concerns, so there needs to be a care order.

Am I being unreasonable to think I don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them back, if they’re not willing to even bother working with me?

OP posts:
Teenangels · 14/11/2019 12:52

OP
Please be honest with yourself and work with social services even if I thought they were wrong.
I would do anything to get my kids back, they would have set out plans and would have had meetings with you throughout the time you become involved with them.
OP how long has this been going on for, as you have not said? I think it has probably been going on since before your youngest was born?
So your oldest would have been nearly 2, surely they would have seen her develop and if they thought there was issues they would have flagged them up.

PaisleyPrintz · 14/11/2019 12:57

What if the mother had previously sought help for dv, but for whatever reason felt trapped and could not leave? It's easy for outsiders to say "she should have fleed, why didn't she press charges sooner/leave sooner, etc".

It's very telling that dv is only seen as a serious for dc if they are made homeless or m contacted support services in the first instance of dv. The circumstances around dv are not black and white, but are treated as such.

Wilmalovescake · 14/11/2019 13:00

I give up.

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:01

I haven’t called anyone evil, I would say misguided. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I’d litter the post with abusive language and say they’ve been taken for bonuses, or something else a bit weird.

However, if I was in an abusive relationship, this experience would make me terrified of seeking help. Refuges don’t tend to be nice places and make homeless hostels look like heaven. I’ve noticed a culture of ‘worthy’ victimhood. DV from families is poorly understood. I’ve done it, but I know how hard it is to cut ties and start again. Once you leave the system, you’re entirely on your own and you don’t know anyone. You often end up in the middle of family disputes and side taking, which again, you have to walk away from. I’m lucky I’ve got a couple of nice relatives.

Mind you, I’ve met people who end up going back to a violent partner because they haven’t got anything else. Social services intervention is very emotionally draining and isolating. I can totally understand how they end up caught in that trap, then end up losing their children. I suppose it’s all well and good saying to stay away, but sometimes proper support is needed. I’ve known of many people who’ve left their partners, families, jobs and end up stuck on a council estate miles away. It’s sad for the women, it’s sad for the kids.

OP posts:
PaisleyPrintz · 14/11/2019 13:03

In reply to your last post, and in reference to my pp @Glacecherrychops why is the blame put on the mother for being trapped in a dv relationship because of the dv person's manipulation?

Research suggests that the majority of dv survivors have long lasting mental health issues as a result of dv - PTSD, depression and anxiety disorders. Yet, this is overlooked by ss as a reason for staying, alongside the psychological control of the perp.

More support and understanding for mothers who have been da is needed, if we are to protect the long term well being of the dc involved.

DidILeaveTheGasOn · 14/11/2019 13:05

OP, what do you want out of posting here, just support? I think a lot of folk want to try to help, but their suggestions have been brushed off.

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:10

18 months, they have flagged up the developmental delay, but they’re excluding the probability that it’s related to autism. My child doesn’t recognise her own name and I’ve been blamed for that.

Speech therapy hasn’t said anything like that and are also concerned there are many signs of autism. They feel I communicate with her appropriately. She’s on the waiting list to see a paediatrician, but all of this blaming ends up affecting her. I’ve offered to get her tested privately, which they’ve entirely discouraged. I’ve got an entirely non verbal child who this situation is causing distress to. She needs a very rigorous routine, which she got at home, but now she doesn’t. My younger daughter gets upset every time she’s taken away from contact, or I leave the room. She’s very attached to me. I am concerned about the bruising, as she doesn’t manage that in my care.

OP posts:
SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:12

@DidILeaveTheGasOn I’m not sure what you mean by that, sorry. Why would they feel brushed off? I’ve tried many of the suggestions already. Quite a few posters haven’t read my replies properly. Some people have been supportive, it’s appreciated and I’ve been thankful. Confused

OP posts:
PaisleyPrintz · 14/11/2019 13:17

OP, I take it you live in social housing. Have you tried to apply for emergency re-housing? If not, it is little wonder that ss are concerned that you cannot or will not do this.

I do wonder if there is not more to this, OP. Messy and cluttered living conditions is often indicative of poor parental MH and or substance abuse. If this is the case, please look after yourself and seek help.

You don't need to change your dc's bedding daily or buy them surplus clothing, but you do need to feed them properly, give them love and attention, etc. I'm thinking ss feel your style of parenting is unbalanced - negligent in some areas and completely over the top in others? I could be wrong, however.

As a side note, I wonder why housing associations and councils are not fined for allowing families with young children to live in sub-standard conditions? Surely THEY should be doing something about atrocious levels of damp and mould?

Glacecherrychops · 14/11/2019 13:19

OP, would you mind clarifying:

Are SS concerned that you are still in a relationship with your ex partner?

Are you still in contact with your ex partner? When did the relationship end? Did you experience abuse in the relationship?

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:20

By the way, just read through some more of the replies. Not all of my family are bad. Some are nice and supportive. Life isn’t all or nothing. Other people aren’t responsible for a perpetrator’s actions. Attitudes like that actually hurt victims of abuse.

OP posts:
SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:22

@Glacecherrychops no, they’re not concerned I’m with my ex-partner. He ran off shortly after social services became involved.

He decided that he could have more children with someone better than me. He wasn’t abusive towards me, just a waste of space.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 14/11/2019 13:25

Firstly, I'm so sorry you are going through a traumatic time.

I have experience of SS myself so I understand how they make giant leaps from something small inferring something that isn't true. For example - I told the SW that my autistic boy likes to keep his bed in a certain way (pillows, cuddly toys etc in certain places) - her inference from that was that his bed never gets changed - which is not true atall. Another one was I told her my 12 year old enjoys cooking and often makes his own breakfast/lunch/snacks - her inference was that we don't cook meals for him - again not true.

However, I agree with the other posters that it will make things worse if you try and argue against everything. You need to show to them that you can look after yoyr children. So instead of asking them if they've ever seen the children hungry, ask them how you can show them that you are capable of feeding them properly. Even if it feels patronising and obvious - show them you know the children need 3 meals a day, show them you know what a healthy diet looks like. I wish you all the best in getting your children back. Don't give up!

Teenangels · 14/11/2019 13:25

18 months, and you have had 4 health visitors?
You said that one HV didn’t believe you had educational toys like books, jigsaws, building blocks, but loads of soft toys why didn’t you show them?
Had your oldest daughter improved since being in foster care? Surely the social workers can provide this information and will go in your favour if she has not improved.
As I said in my previous post be honest with yourself as they don’t take children away for nothing, there are multi agency case conferences that all provide reports not just one person.

AnotherEmma · 14/11/2019 13:30

I was skeptical when I first started reading but after reading all your posts I am heartbroken for you, it really does sound as if you and your children have been victims of incompetence, discrimination and downright nastiness Sad

I think you should contact the Family Rights Group to ask their advice:
www.frg.org.uk/
I think you should make a complaint about children's services and they can advise about whether and how to do that.

There is also some helpful info here, it says that you can contact the IRO (independent reviewing officer)
www.familylives.org.uk/advice/your-family/social-services-and-your-family/coping-with-the-aftermath-of-having-your-children-removed-by-social-services/

Lastly if you are still not getting anywhere, I wonder if you local councillor or MP could help?

PaisleyPrintz · 14/11/2019 13:34

@SeaOfDespair I agree with you, other people ARE NOT responsible for a perpetrator's abuse. It is only themselves who ought to be held accountable. Those sorts of attitudes do do lasting damage to mothers and children. Much more support and understanding is certainly needed.

However, your posts don't come off as very clear. Please do take care of yourself - you really need to co-operate with ss as far as is possible in order to get your dc back.

Regardless if you feel there concerns are vague, to them they are obviously serious concerns, as they would not have sought to remove your children from your care otherwise. It is clear to me, that for some reason you cannot see the woods for trees wrt their concerns. That in itself will be a concern for ss.

goldfinchfan · 14/11/2019 13:39

OP my head would explode if I listened to all the advice given in these posts.

I do suggest that you stick to asking again fr an advocate......explain that things are much more serious now.
FInd a lawyer. Find advice on finding a good lawyer. If there are time issues like with Mencap then beg them . Explain how serious your case is.
You want your girls back and you must be tenacious and keep trying.

I think the legal route plus an advocate should stop the SS getting away with any more lies about you.

You have already done a lot of what they asked for. This is something you can show to the Lawyer and Advocate to show you are doing what you can and that they the SS are not helping you.

I so hope you get your girls back.

Most of the posters who think you are holding back info probably have never had the unfortunate experience of the SS going against you. It is not something I can ever forget.
Also SS staff coming on here will also close ranks. They always do.

SeaOfDespair · 14/11/2019 13:42

I’m in temporary accommodation, so that’s basically emergency housing. I’m waiting for something permanent. I’ve found it’s much easier holding housing associations or private landlords (with a proper tenancy) to account. There aren’t many laws to protect people in temporary accommodation and many people, including myself, are on an excluded licence, so have very little rights. The condition of the place has been improved dramatically and I’m in contact with them to get it decorated, as the previous leaks have caused bad staining.

To be honest, the clutter is totally my own fault. I was in a habit of buying too much for the girls and overfilling my cupboards, so I put things on top of the microwave and the counter. They’ve got so many clothes that I constantly need to organise them, after washing and drying them. Sometimes when I got depressed and felt under interrogation, I didn’t put them away quickly enough. I acknowledge I buy them too much because I couldn’t give the babies I lost anything. When I had the stillbirth, I couldn’t do anything for her and it meant when it came to having ‘take home’ children, I went over the top. With my eldest, I fed her really nice food and I had rubbish. When my baby started weaning, I put my foot down and made extra, then blended it down. I realised I was going over the top a few months ago and cut down how much I bought for them.

My eldest was in a very good daytime routine. She always got up at the same time, had breakfast at the same time, got dressed at the same time, then we’d usually do something in the early morning, like going to the library or a little walk somewhere. Then I’d come back, make lunch and usually tidy whilst it was cooking. My younger one had her meals at the same time as her sister, then extra milk. I set time aside to play with them and do things. My elder one loves drawing and painting, so I sat beside her and praised her for it. I would engage with my younger one to encourage her speech and give her loads of attention too. It’s a hard balance sometimes, but the way my younger one has came on, I think I’ve done something right. Although it was said by ss that she’s behind her milestones, her assessments and her ability proves this to be incorrect. She’s babbling loads, cruising and so nosey. She will make eye contact. I’m so proud of her.

OP posts:
Glacecherrychops · 14/11/2019 13:44

In reply to your last post, and in reference to my pp @Glacecherrychops* why is the blame put on the mother for being trapped in a dv relationship because of the dv person's manipulation?

Research suggests that the majority of dv survivors have long lasting mental health issues as a result of dv - PTSD, depression and anxiety disorders. Yet, this is overlooked by ss as a reason for staying, alongside the psychological control of the perp.

More support and understanding for mothers who have been da is needed, if we are to protect the long term well being of the dc involved.*

I'm not putting them blame on teh mother for being trapped in an abusive relationship. You aren'g going to be able to pin me as someone who blames women for men's misdeeds, I'm afraid.

What I was saying, was that the courts decide custody based on evidence. If there is clear evidence of DV, e.g. a police report, pictures of injuries etc, it is easy to say: this person is not allowed contact with children.

In a situation where there is no evidence, and it is one persons word against another, what should they do?

believe the woman and disregard the man as men are more likely to be perpetrators?
Believe both without any evidence and take the children into care?
say the claims aren't proven and give both parents access?

I was saying this in response to your question about why some men get unsupervised access to their dc when their partner says they have been abusive.

RolytheRhino · 14/11/2019 13:48

Hmm. I think maybe you need to start playing the game, OP.

I do believe that you've been a victim of discrimination and appalling abuses of power and malevolence by some professionals. However, it's far easier for other professionals to think you're lying then to believe it of their professional colleagues. I think trying to get them to agree they were wrong is a non-starter.

I think you need to tell them you've thought about it and realised that you've not been very helpful. Tell them you know that they want to support you to improve so that you can look after your family and you've decided you are really going to listen to them now and stop making excuses for the past. You want to work with them and know you need their help. This is true- you do need their help or you don't get your kids back.

Then you must show them you're listening and stop arguing with them, even if you don't agree with what they say. Just nod and be very serious, calm and amiable. Do exactly what they tell you. Be double-checking all the time but in a very mild and non-confrontational way, for example, 'I'm trying to do this but I'm not sure I'm doing it right... Can you check it for me please?' Be incredibly polite at all times. It is difficult with Aspergers, but it can be done. Social interaction is a game with lots of rules and you can learn them and apply them if you try. Very good luck to you and I really hope you get your girls back. Flowers

Makesmilingyourbesthobby · 14/11/2019 13:50

People with Aspergers can sometimes struggle to see other people’s opinions and points of view PP’s, so are less likely to be able to see anybody else’s reasoning or take onboard others advice amongst other things.
There has been issues with some people with Aspergers and SS for a good few years now, for a number of reasons such as children socially under developed children with no emotional support the list is long, there seems to be good reasoning behind it for why some can struggle but no proper studies have been done that I’m aware of so none of it is proven, it also does not help if dealing with professionals there is nobody there that understands Aspergers, the main reason I think your all struggling to come to a plan together for these girls is communication op I would do as others have advised and have someone attend with you who can make sure both sides are understanding what is being asked and so you can be sure you know what they are expecting from you
The idea to get it all in written is another great option, we can all improve ourselves so I suggest this is exactly what you do with this time, get a good daily routine planned out to show SS with good nutritional meals and a good and schedule for the girls such as Playgroup’s and play schemes an activities for the girls socially good emotional support for them stimulating activities for them, improve your parenting, homelife, your finances even though you say you don’t struggle with money see if these can be improved to show SS your aiming to better yours and children’s home life and have it more stable for them, if their father is involved with you and has been violent towards you then that will be your main hurdle with SS as they won’t allow children to return where there has been violence until they can see that person is no longer in the picture

Glacecherrychops · 14/11/2019 13:54

The poor diet is based on a singular question, which was about breakfast. My eldest likes porridge with fruit.

I don't understand. They thought porridge with fruit was a poor diet and took your children into care? There must be more to this.

RockinHippy · 14/11/2019 13:54

I’ll have a look at mencap. I’m absolutely doubtful I can get someone that quickly. Even a 3 month wait would mean the end of the court case.

MENCAP will help you & quickly.

They advocated for my DD when she was 14 & I was being accused of FII by a so called medical professional because I wouldn't accept her diagnosis that pretty much wrote DD off to a life in a wheelchair & severe unmanageable pain without any help. All because DD who we also believe is very likely to have Aspergers too, hated this particular consultant & refused to speak to her as she felt disbelieved & that the doctor was accusing her of exaggerating her pain etc. Thankfully our GP knows us better & DD loves her & speaks to her easily, so she had our corner. The tests & treatment I was pushing fir, git my DD out of a wheelchair in under 2 weeks, left untreated it would have killed her.

Having a understanding MENCAP advocate speak to & then speak for DD instead of me made all of the difference at the hospital & I'm sure it will be the same for you too.

I'm so sorry for what you & your DCs are going through, but you only have to look at the extra exam time thread to see just how shit the understanding of invisible disabilities, especially ASD is, even amongst educators. Definitely get help, you might not need it as far as communicating goes, but it will mean that they can't dismiss your POV, or be so rude as to roll eyes when talking with you.

Good luck

BlastEndedSkrewt · 14/11/2019 13:56

what is the story with the Crack head that you mentioned OP? Were you previously in an environment with a lot of drug users ?

OldQueen1969 · 14/11/2019 14:02

Hi @SeaOfDespair,

I have been watching this thread since the beginning and can't sit on my hands any longer.

The first thing I want to say is that I was in your position 25 years ago with regard to my infant DC. Mine was a different sort of case in that it was a medical controversy often framed - at least in the past - as pathognomonic of child abuse. Since then there has been some research and changes of practise on top of a high profile case which I believe has improved practise. At least I hope so.

Like you I was stuck in a never ending loop of asking what I could / should do, above and beyond the normal realms of parenting - aside from confessing to a crime I hadn't committed, it seemed that nothing would be sufficient. Aside from controversial "injuries" there was nothing significant to make our situation high risk.

I too have a litany of inaccuracies, erroneous accusations, wilful misinterpretation of comments and conversations, and it took 18 months for my DC to come home. He remained on the At Risk Register until he was 3.

I was extremely lucky with my outcome, as my case was framed to me by my own solicitor as the second worst case of "child abuse" in my county that year.

I am not saying any of this to make you feel more scared, but to try and explain that until you have been the subject of child protection proceedings it is very difficult to understand what a confusing and experience it is. Once the juggernaut is rolling, it's very much a case of just trying to keep yourself from being sucked under the wheels.

There are good and bad apples in the CP basket, as with any walk of life, but yes, sometimes you do run up against someone with their own personal agenda, no doubt coming from the best intentions to be seen as acting in the "best interests of the child", but executed in a detrimental manner.

The SW I had was utterly determined to have me prosecuted. The CPS didn't touch it. Even after my DC came home, she was pressing for an application to be made for Criminal injuries Compensation - she was admonished by both the Judge and the GAL.

Thinking back to my own experience, and reading your posts, what i recall most clearly is the feeling that I had slipped into a parallel universe where what one would assume were normal rules did not apply, and I hear a similar bewilderment from you.

If it is not too outing can you say what sort of order your DDs are currently under? Is it a full care order or an interim care order, or something else? My DC was voluntarily accommodated with fosterers until the Final Hearing, which apparently is unusual, but can happen.

Do your DDs have a Guardian Ad Litem to advocate on their behalf, and in addition their own solicitor? if so, how is this person dealing with the situation? Are they supportive?

I echo other advice that you have been given - keep accurate records of every interaction, and also of contact. When I had contact, always supervised, at a Family Centre, I would be asked to sign a summary of the days notes and add my own comments - this was then submitted to court when the time came.

The testing of parents to gauge your reactions is not uncommon - I confess I was sometimes overhwelmed and less than polite and reserved when dealing with particularly obtuse interactions, and a field day was had every time. I soon learned my place - to comply, and make my solicitor take note of everything to be followed up if pertinent.

To those saying there is no smoke without fire, and the bar for removal is set high, I say yes and no. I have just supported a friend dealing with the "Future Risk of harm" threshold. It is a minefield for the parent.

I have been told categorically by the well-meaning that my recollections of my experience are wrong and could not happen because law, because ethics, because "poor SWs damned if they do, damned if they don't", but I have three court bundles still which chronicle quite a few instances of error, some of it deliberate manipulation of a situation to improve their case.

One example - my DC was born five weeks early as a result of pre-eclampsia. We were kept in hospital for a week, then went home. Down the line, my non-attendance of ante natal classes was used as an example that I was at risk of not engaging with professionals and did not want to socialise with other parents. My solicitor was able to point out that the classes were scheduled to start the week AFTER he was born. Which information was available for all to see, in my medical notes, the HV notes, the mid-wife notes - but it was "mis-interpreted" and could have had an impact on the Judge's view.

That's a minor one, but I have worse if anyone would like to hear it.

The system is underfunded, time frames have been created which make it better for placing children permanently sooner but that make it hard for parents to mount a defence or improve significantly especially if their needs and challenges are complex. I still do not believe that there is a vast conspiracy to remove children from loving parents for no reason, but the way the system operates does little to make parents feel that they really are all working together in the "best interests of the child". Until I went through it myself, I could have said there must always be good reasons for removal - and I still accept that investigating my DC's injuries was absolutely right - but the way they did it, the passing of the issues like a hot potato between medical professionals and SWs, and the utter determination to demonise / break me into accepting a lie was pretty eye-opening. And I had alot of family and community support who als were baffled as time went on.

So i am sorry if I have hijacked the thread a bit.

I wanted to offer a handhold and say take the best bits of advice from people here, keep going, and keep your DDs the centre of you world. Get as much advice as you can, and as long as you are as honest with yourself as everybody else, there will hopefully be a turning point in the future.

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