Choir disappointment

[nannytothequeen]

This isn't really an AIBU. Cos I probably am. But I don't know where else to post. All my adult life I have derived a lot of pleasure from singing in choirs. I can read music competently and have always been a solid singer. Moved to a new place and joined a choir. No auditions needed. Have a couple of friends singing in another section. Paid my subs. Attended all rehearsals. I have found it a bit cliquey. Most singers are older than me and some much older and have known each other for years. But it doesn't matter when you're singing. In the last couple of weeks I have had some snide comments from other singers about getting something wrong, or not saying the words right or singing too loudly (in the loud bits) or being off key ( that particular criticism was galling because I had stopped singing at that point to try and listen to get it right). I have felt increasingly ganged up on but have largely ignored the comments.

Today I got an email from the choir leader saying that the conductor remains concerned that my voice is not balancing with the others. I didn't know he was concerned. He has never even spoken to me about anything ever. So I have been asked not to take part in the upcoming concert that I have been practicing for. However I am more than welcome to try out next year when all choir members will be auditioned.

AIBU to think fuck that for a game of soldiers? AIBU to be a bit upset? AIBU to think that something I have loved for literally decades has been kind of spoiled ? It sounds pathetic but it is like another rejection after a horrible marriage breakdown after he found another woman in the shape of a former friend and a move to a new place on my own.

I think people are projecting massively when they say that they are 100% sure it's jealousy etc. It might be. Or it might not be. We've had grade 8 singers in our choir, and they are by no means the best at choral singing, however good they might be individually. One of them is terribly flat most of the time! It probably wasn't so obvious when he was singing solo as he didn't have to fit in with others. Some of them are massively loud, and really don't notice that they're not blending. Or don't notice that they are making mistakes because they can't even hear the rest of their section (or aren't listening). They get wrong notes, or rhythms, or words. And can't tell, because they are louder than everyone, so their mistakes don't stand out to them. It's not that they aren't good singers, or that they aren't liked, but they can be very difficult to have in the choir. On the other hand, when they really work at it, they can also be huge assets, because they are strong singers, and that can be really helpful. But it has to fit in and adjust. So don't assume it's jealousy. It might be that others do find a particular voice very difficult because of volume, blending, tuning, or accuracy issues, rather than being cliquey or jealous.

None of that excuses treating someone badly and not giving them a chance to correct it, though. It could be handled much better. And it could be that it's jealousy or resentment of an outsider coming in. But there are lots of reasons that it might not be, too. so I'd say, stay open minded to the possibility that your voice doesn't fit at the moment, and if you can find a choir you want to join - or if you want to carry on in this one - see if there are things you can do to blend in better. What does the rest of your section sound like?

I do also know of people who starting singing much more loudly as they lost hearing slightly, and they were not particularly old. They just didn't realise how loud they were (and off-putting as a result, sadly).

It could be all sorts of things, including cliquey, mean people. But maybe there are other reasons, and if you would like to be part of it, maybe it will just take time and asking what you could do to improve. I know that our choir might seem cliquey to people, partly because we don't have a tea break, and thus it takes a very long time to get to know people, because people tend to gravitate to talking to those they know in the short time we do have for socialising, because there's so little time to catch up otherwise. I wish we did have a break, as I think it would help. We tend to get to know newer people on occasional social events, but it takes quite a while for those to happen, because they're not formally arranged by the choir or anything. We also aim for a very high standard, despite being amateurs, so it isn't just for fun, and some people who want that might find that it's disappointing.

@bimbleberries OP has tried to talk to the conductor and rang them several times to ask for feedback but is getting no response

Does your choir have many newcomers ?

Bimble But if there IS an issue of the sort you mention, as we've said earlier, that's the job of the conductor to fix. The conductor has said nothing to the OP.

Also @Bimbleberries would you form a group with other members of your choir and approach the choir leader to ask them to ask the new person to leave ? Or would you try and fix things first ?

Can you ask to meet with the conductor? Sing for them and share your concerns? Maybe they're just taking the word of some committee busybody that the annoying sounds are yours?

OR (silly, but outside the box) Can you pretend to have not seen the email, attend rehearsal, 'sing' in playback/mouth the words all rehearsal and see if the comments are the same? I don't know if I'd have the time or the balls to do that though....

Bimble You might aim for a 'very high standard despite being amateurs'. But thats exactly what you are, amateurs. If you were really that good you'd be doing it professionally and/or entering competitions.

Apologies for sound rude, but you really sound like one of those people and one of those choirs that the rest of us are referring to.

Can you pretend to have not seen the email, attend rehearsal, 'sing' in playback/mouth the words all rehearsal and see if the comments are the same?

That is GENIUS!

Yes absolutely the conductor should speak to her; I don't think they have treated her well at all. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily jealousy. Sometimes there are actual problems with particular voices, and the person doesn't realise. It certainly doesn't excuse dealing with it in that way.

yes, we have many new members. It takes time to get to know them. It took me a while to get to know people too, partly because of the lack of social time.

We are amateurs, and pay to be in it. But not all voices fit, and there is an audition process, but it can be hard to tell from a solo audition how someone blends with a group, and at times there are voices that are difficult in a section. Most new people's voices fit in fine.

There are lots of things that people can do to make their voices fit in better - the point is that just because someone has an excellent solo voice, it doesn't mean that they automatically are better than everyone else or that they blend in. They could still be out of tune, or too loud, or making mistakes that they can't hear. It needs to be dealt with tactfully and well, which I don't think it has in this case. And indeed, there could well be some jealousy going on - but nobody can say 100%, because there are also many real reasons why a trained voice doesn't always fit.

Start your own choir, buy some matching leather jackets and intimidate your enemies with a sing-off down a dark alleyway by the cathedral.

Isnt part of the skill of choral singing being able to match and blend with others, and part of the skill of arranging and conducting being able to make this happen ? It’s easy to just say ‘your voice doesn’t blend’. There’s a lot more skill in being able to compromise as a group and work on musicality etc

Honestly... some people are jealous. I played with a local amateur orchestra for a while and there were a few people who hated talented people joining in case they took the limelight away from themselves. The whole point of an orchestra is to play as one, not try to stand out. I remember one particularly petty and jealous member who couldn’t stand anybody being better than him, but many players were. It seemed that people pandered to him because he had been there a good while so he had seniority. Very strange.

Bimble There are two sorts of choir, aren't there? Community choirs that more or less take all comers and often don't sing more than four-part harmony and choirs that do full eight-part (sometimes more) all the time and tackle difficult choral pieces.

All the good choirs of the second type I know of have a two-stage audition process - a short solo piece so the conductor can here their range etc and then in an SATB to see if they are secure on holding a line and blend. A good conductor can usually tell from the two together how they will fit with the existing members, vocally, or not.

*Hear not here. Shocking error there. I shall birch myself immediately.

Just to say I tried at a certain point to get back into singing through choirs and was in two.

So so cliquey and filled with politics. Choir leader would randomly choose to pick on individual people until they left. On one occasion she picked on the wrong person and the choir lost 6 members overnight

People began to find excuses to leave until one day I turned around and found everyone I had been friends with was gone.

It wasn't fun anymore just stress

I hear you though

I think bimble makes some good points.

Some people are brilliant solo singers, but aren't good choristors.

And yes there's different levels of amateurs choirs. I can't believe people suggesting it's either amateurs or they'd be good enough to be professional. Not all people want to be professional musicians and work 2/3/4/5 jobs in the gig economy. Some amateur choirs are really very good, sing 8 part complex pieces etc , others accept anyone who can hold a tune and sing at best in 2 parts for women and maybe 2 men if you're lucky. Some focus on a chilled social sing, others are musically challenging for those who are working at a higher level or have the commitment to learn.

It's very easy for people to say "oh they're obviously jealous" but often it's not as simple as that.
Of course nothing excuses the unpleasant and nasty behaviour though.

Start your own choir, buy some matching leather jackets and intimidate your enemies with a sing-off down a dark alleyway by the cathedral.

Can I join?

Damntheman has it. I'm a bass player. Hence sitting at the back and thus hearing all the yapping.

I agree about orchestras too. The best ones are lovely, but I've left others when the cliquey thing starts.

OP, I didn't really answer your question. YANBU. You are being treated badly, whether or not your singing is good enough. I have groaners in my school choir. I simply ask them to sing quietly and they get the pleasure of being part of a group without me singling them out and embarrassing them. If there is a problem with your voice (unlikely given the groups you've been in), there are much better ways of working. Keep plugging away at contacting the conductor/music director rather than the chairperson and ask them outright.

Because I am small-minded and vindictive when I have been wronged, I would sit outside their concert in my car with my stereo pumping out something deeply inappropriate - a bit of Wagner or heavy rock springs to mind - to disrupt things. Alternatively, you could sit in the audience and record bits on your phone which you could then criticise to the "powers that be". If you are going to go, you might as well do it spectacularly. Chin up, chest out and sod the lot of them!

The difference in singing 'accents' is noticeable if you go between choirs - I've been at one where the preferred voice was a very traditional English and one where the preferred voice was the exaggerated Italian style for the same piece.

Perhaps, if you can afford it, you would be able to develop the prevalent style with some lessons?

Personally, I'm jealous of there being an Early Music Choir. There aren't any around here and I'd far rather be singing O Magnum Mysterium at Christmas than yet another piece in English by Vaughan Williams.

Musical groups can be really fab, inspiring places but they also have a tendency to be very clannish. The last orchestra I played with, years ago, was an absolute cesspit of favouritism and silly bitching. They claimed to be welcoming to anyone over Grade 3 but it soon became clear that they weren't really interested in having new members and you really needed to be Grade 5 at least - the Grade 3 thing was because they struggled to get some instruments in at all.

The last straw was a ridiculous diva oboist having a strop because I had taken her special chair to sit on. Not sat in her position, just taken a chair from the stack that she was obsessed with.

If the early music choir has a lot of crossover with the current choir, could it be that they sing there because they want to get away from some of the drama llamas in the other choir?

The thing about the "high quality" choirs, who sing complex choral pieces and get to perform in amazing places (I've been in a couple of these) is that they ALWAYS audition. And they can also re-audition members on a regular basis - one of the choirs I was a member of, one of my alto friends was put up to being a second soprano at one of her re-auditions because her voice had changed.

These choirs can be very large or quite small - I've been in both types - but they still only contain amateur singers because no one could afford to pay 150 professional choristers to sing at anything! We used to struggle to pay the 1-5 professional soloists and make money out of concerts! Plus of course the orchestra, and the venue hire... We sang because we paid for the privilege to do so, we never got paid ourselves. Been on tv though! (No you couldn't pick me out )

I have booked a singing lesson to try and sort out of there is anything fundamentally amiss. And will take it from there. I don't want 'another chance' or to 'audition' when no one else is auditioning. I have my pride and even if my singing were horrific I don't want to be part of s group that treats others with distain. I am also reluctant to speak to the conductor as I am unsure it will be helpful.

That sounds good. I hope it all goes well. I really do like the idea of starting your own group.

Much as I understand your point to Bimble @thewomanontheshoreand for the last six years I've stuck at amateur level, no competitions, because it's simply more fun.

Best of luck OP. I agree, I also wouldn't audition if nobody else was going to be forced to do so. It sounds like they're bullying you.

Sorry thewoman! I have no idea what happened with the tag there, that was meant for Manon.

So sorry this has happened to you.

This thread has been a revelation. I was thinking of joining a choir but this has completely put me off. I'm no more than an average singer but thought it would be fun!