To think most men actually don't really want kids?

[Thickums]

Interesting discussion with my friends last night about dating/contraception/children.

We were talking about how a lot of men do say they 'want' kids, but its more of in the way that they'd like a trip to a hawaii or a ferrari. It seems nice to have/do but not much thought past that? If women didn't push having babies then would human race would rapidly decline?

By this i mean, when 'ttc', men just seem to passively go along with it. If women were to be as passive as men then we couldn't really see men 'stepping up', by researching ovulation days, asking to dtd on certain days and then going to the GP entirley off their own back if they didn't get a bfp after a few months of trying.

We then also wondered how long it would actually take men generally to start really pushing the baby issue if women were passive and stopped using protection but didnt actively try either. If women kicked back and carried on living life without much discussion of ttc and just let things happen. Would men keep bringing up actively ttc? Or would they generally just coast along along with their female partners until its too late if pregnancy didn't occur and then just shrug their shoulders that it didn't happen?

If that is the case, then is that why men find it so much easier to walk away from kids? Or dont feel generally as responsible for them? Because they actually weren't all that bothered to begin with. They just go along with having a baby because it's what people do, but not many men actively and purposefully really yearn for it?

Be interested to hear others thoughts amd experiences on this!!

No, I don’t think it is mean! I think it’s probably pretty accurate in a lot of cases.

My ex wasn’t all that bothered and when we were being investigated for fertility issues really couldn’t be bothered

My DH wanted kids and I will be the one that ends up limiting our family size rather than him

My DF was the one who wanted children and my DM was less bothered

Just a small example though

“ By not having them, many men would feel something was missing from their lives, but dealing with the every day management and care of DC is a very different thing! They tend to disappear!”

The don’t “tend to disappear”. The opposite is true. Get some perspective.

I’m a man and of all the men I know there is only one who doesn’t have and doesn’t want children. Every one of my friends who have kids find it hard at different stages, and so do their partners. It’s the norm now for both partners to work and for their to be very little or no support. It is a real struggle, raising children in 2019.

I wanted my children very much, as did their mother. Not for status but because we felt we could give children a really loving home and what was the rest of our lives for if not that? Had we not had children we know we wouldn’t have been happier than we are now, even if the now if often hard.

Every man I know is the same. They want kids because if not then what’s it all for. That’s the psychological driver behind men and parenthood, and the desire to experience that part of life. It is different to the biological drivers women experience, for sure.

That’s because men and women are different though, and the expectation that men should ape women, that fathers should take the same approach and have the same instincts, and the same strengths and weaknesses as mothers, is unrealistic.

@LexitLeft

YOU may think it's accurate, (that most men don't want children,) and it may be so for your man and the men around you.

Certainly does not apply in my case, or for many couples I know.

I seem to have hit a raw nerve with you.

So, I rest my case, and stick by every word I said in my first post from 15.50 (where I said women who say 'most men don't want children' are speaking from bitter experience, because their own man didn't want them (or their father made it clear he wasn't too bothered either.)

My husband thought he wanted children but after we got married and sat down to plan actually making them, he admitted that he wasn't actually that bothered.

Luckily(?) I'd secretly been having second thoughts and finding that out was a huge weight off my mind.

In fairness, men can get pressure from their families to produce children

We got lot of pressure from my side for a couple of years until I lost it at a family get together after being asked when were going start a family for about the 50th time that day. It's never been mentioned since.

No, no raw nerve at all, I’m finding it quite funny!

I definitely think men don't get as broody as women. Some do, but not the majority. I think men like the idea of being fathers more than liking the idea of nurturing.

Saying that, most fathers become incredible parents and nurturers although it comes to them more naturally when kids are older. I think there are often better parents once the kids reach teenagehood.

@littlehappyhippo are you okay?

Interesting thoughts about it maybe being more of a biological/evolutionary thing with men not having the same pressures wiyj2 the whole 'biological clock'.

Quite a few posters point out that its the general lack of understanding and thought behind the realities of having children and general daily drudgery. But a lot of women don't know just how hard it is (im guessing?) but they just get on with it for the most part and don't even contemplate the option of only doing the 'fun bits'.

Although i do wonder if women then also became ambivalent around actual parenting and only did the fun bits amd pretended not to be capable of anything else, would men then step up and do the mental work as there would be no other choice and they said they wanted the kids too? Would they also say their wives are 'great mums' who 'adore' their children despite them doing the bare minimum of daily drudgery and only becoming animated when at the park or playing games?

I will ponder that thought too!!

I became a Dad for the first time at the age of 42. It wasn't through lack of desire. I had two long term relationships in my twenties: the first wanted nothing to do with the idea and the second didn't even want her parents to know that we were sleeping together (but refused to take any kind of responsibility for contraception, refused to get married, and would accuse me of deliberately trying to get her pregnant to 'trap' her in the relationship...!)

Throughout my thirties, I tried online dating and made it clear that I wanted to marry and have children, and was almost universally ignored by women who claimed to want the same thing. I finally met my wonderful wife at the age of 37, and we knew within a couple of dates that this was how we both wanted our lives. The moment our financial situation and living arrangements made it comfortable to consider starting a family we tried.

I am a SAHD. I do all the heavy lifting with DD: the shitty nappies, the disturbed nights, the supermarket tantrums, the swimming lessons, making sure her change bag is always fully stocked and her laundry is done. It is a bit insulting to read the insinuations on here that men are somehow incapable of doing this all, or lose interest once they've got the trophy baby.

In fact, out of my three closest friends two are also SAHDs and the other has been at various times, depending on employment circumstances. One of them is divorcing and getting full custody of both children (ironically, since the first was unplanned and the second all his STBxW's idea). One was abandoned by his own mother at the age of seven, another would have been if his mother hadn't fought for him just to spite her ex who fought for years for access. She made of point of sending him away to boarding school, out of sight and mind. We would all find it odd to be accused of not really wanting kids with women who do.

I suspect that the mechanics of terminations are somewhat responsible for the lop-sidedness of it all. If a woman doesn't want the child she is carrying but the man does, it is a lot easier to terminate it than if matters were reversed.

Not sure if it's just men.
But I do think a lot of people like the idea of having kids but are shocked at how hard the reality is.
I also think that Mother Nature/biology drives us to reproduce when it's actually not the best thing for some people to do.

No, there are plenty of broody men. Your idea of what ttc actually entails is also a bit odd. Most of the time one party or another brings up ‘let’s have a baby’, the other says ‘ok’ and nine months to a year later hey presto you have a baby, there is absolutely no need for most people to go through calculating ovulation etc.

the expectation that men should ape women, that fathers should take the same approach and have the same instincts, and the same strengths and weaknesses as mothers, is unrealistic.
"Ape women?" By checking the kids eat properly or have a bag packed for school? Do you mean all those day to day practical/nurturing considerations? Because if you do, you might find it interesting that the 2 lone dads I know do all those things quite instinctively. Because they have to. Because there's no woman about picking up the slack, which let's face it in most families there's is. At least one. Two or three if you count grandma's, aunties etc. My "strengths" as a mother, if I'm honest, include daft games, football practice, and getting a teen to talk to me. The remembering dentist appointments, replacing socks and checking homework, not so much. But I do everything because there's no one else to.
It's always been such a handy get-out for men, the "different strengths" line..

told him I’m not reducing my hours, he can. I’ve also told him if we split up he’s having full custody and I’ll have the child every other weekend
I think we are at (or nearly at) a tipping point where women will feel just as able as men to take this stance

I agree HepzibahGreen. Being different seems to mean doing little in lots of cases. I can see some men don’t have instinct regarding bringing up DC but don’t intend to learn any skills either. It’s much easier to sit back and say it’s unrealistic to expect them to care for DC as their strengths are different. After all, a woman’s bred to do it, isn’t she?

Full custody? It’s resident parent actually. This sounds so harsh: more like dealing with a commodity - not a human being! Never take anger out on DC.

The urge isn’t really there but a lot of men, including a lot of my friends wanted kids and play a pretty full part in their lives.

Personally I could take it or leave it and knowing how hard it is, I would with hindsight, have left it. I love them but it’s just completely shaped my life and I have had to take a back seat to meet their needs and wants which is obviously what most people have to do.

I look at life sometimes as I get older and think what the fuck is it all about? Working your arse off with little free time and all for what? To help your kids. The cycle is then repeated. I suppose it’s just human nature at work.

I dk but from what I’ve seen in my own life it’s about equal with men and women, I know one man who for six years keeps fetching up wanting a baby with his partner every year they have the talk but partner doesn’t want one any time soon, I don’t know any women personally whose wanted a baby for that long and partner doesn't every talk they have, I think women just naturally tend to think about things more and have plans where men are more relaxed and go with the flow more

ah yes, the men and women are equal but different line...funny how they are different in ways that makes women economically disadvantaged compared to men

Interesting thread OP!

A few points come to mind:

• the perception that women are the drivers for kids moreso than men is surely caused for the most part by the fact that women have a very defined biological clock that men don’t. Yes, there’s increasing evidence that a man’s advanced age at conception can also contribute to problems, but most people aren’t aware of that. So it’s the case I think that if both sexes had an open ended timeframe then on the whole over time it’d be pretty evenly weighted as to who instigated trying for children/made it known they were ready, only that point comes sooner for women due to biology and therefore in a relationship it seems the woman is driving having kids whereas if time wasn’t an issue it could later on be the man.

• abortion is a factor. A woman who doesn’t want kids yet or ever and finds herself pregnant accidentally can have a termination, a man who gets a woman pregnant and doesn’t want kids yet or ever has no choice but to go with whatever the woman decides. So you’ll end up with fewer women with an unwanted child than you will men.

• it’s more socially acceptable for a woman to openly talk about wanting kids, cooing over babies etc. than it is for men. I speak to people who are middle aged who say their father never played with them or said he loved them, fathers who were present and involved but did not show outward affection. That’s not that long ago, it takes time for societal attitudes to change. So you may have the belief a specific man doesn’t want children when in reality he does, he just feels unable to talk about it openly for fear of being seen as unmanly, emasculated etc.

It’s an interesting one. I do think on the whole women are ready for kids sooner, due to the ticking clock, but on the whole I don’t see it being the case that a larger proportion of men than woman don’t want children. I do think women and men need to take some responsibility to do their due diligence around choosing a partner if they want children, instead of dating someone who states they don’t want them or who is unsure and then being surprised later when they don’t want to try for a baby or goes along with it and is a shit uninvolved parent. It’s important to discuss attitudes towards having kids early in a relationship, even if you’re on the fence or want to remain childfree you need to know where the other person is at.

I met DH when I was 28, he was a few years younger, I’d become single as my ex didn’t want kids but I was ready and desperately wanted a baby. I brought up that I was ready for a family and planned to TTC within the next three years or so on our first date (obviously not ‘I want this with you’ but ‘ideally this is what I’m looking for and I’m open to doing it alone if it comes to it’), so that if he thought that sounded aligned with his own goals we knew it was worth continuing to date, and if he knew that wasn’t what he wanted we could avoid wasting each other’s time.

A friend at the time expressed she was surprised I wasn’t afraid of scaring him off haha. My response was that I wanted to scare off guys who found that a terrible prospect! I wanted to ensure that whoever my next partner was was someone who actively wanted children and had the same desire to have a family as me. If that meant scaring off twenty guys who weren’t anywhere near ready for kids then great! He said he’d always wanted kids and could imagine that and we continued to date and by our three year anniversary we were several months pregnant. Still pregnant actually and expecting our first shortly, so of course neither of us have any idea how it’ll be to be new parents or whether we’ll be parent of the year or struggle, you can’t anticipate every outcome. But I saw promising signs in how he spent the two years prior to TTC actively bringing it up, working hard, saving, working towards getting a property together so we had housing stability, asking me to marry him and then us getting married and so forth (and he has arranged things so that he can take six months off work when the baby is here and hopefully, depending on our contracts, not too far down the line we are both aiming to work part time rather than one full time and one part time as we’d like it to be as equitable as possible).

I wonder if there’s any actual evidence or research out there on gendered approaches to having/wanting children.

I agree, its mostly women who push it. I see so many miserable sahd's, waking around pushing buggies with one hand and looking at their phones, wishing they had greater earning power.

plus the amount of men I hear moaning about post pregnancy bodies is vile.

I don’t know any women personally whose wanted a baby for that long and partner doesn't every talk they have

Probably because those relationships end way before the six year mark, as a women who’s sure she wants kids just doesn’t have endless years to hang around hoping the guy changes his mind. Whereas to be blunt, the man in the scenario you describe isn’t really on quite the same ticking clock. Even if it becomes clear in another few years his partner isn’t ever going to want kids he still has plenty of time to meet someone who does and crack on.

With my ex it all came to a head after two or three years together when I was ready to try and discovered he didn’t know if or when he wanted them (we had discussed kids early on but either he was lying to himself or me by saying he did want them at around that timeframe or what he was saying didn’t really sink in or time moved a lot faster than he’d anticipated). Once we realised i was desperately ready to try and he was equally desperately unwilling to have a baby it only took a few months of arguments and debates and stress before we split up as it was pretty obvious that at 27 I wasn’t able or willing to hang around hoping he’d change his mind. I knew I just didn’t have the time to take that kind of gamble with something so important to me.