To think most men actually don't really want kids?

[Thickums]

Interesting discussion with my friends last night about dating/contraception/children.

We were talking about how a lot of men do say they 'want' kids, but its more of in the way that they'd like a trip to a hawaii or a ferrari. It seems nice to have/do but not much thought past that? If women didn't push having babies then would human race would rapidly decline?

By this i mean, when 'ttc', men just seem to passively go along with it. If women were to be as passive as men then we couldn't really see men 'stepping up', by researching ovulation days, asking to dtd on certain days and then going to the GP entirley off their own back if they didn't get a bfp after a few months of trying.

We then also wondered how long it would actually take men generally to start really pushing the baby issue if women were passive and stopped using protection but didnt actively try either. If women kicked back and carried on living life without much discussion of ttc and just let things happen. Would men keep bringing up actively ttc? Or would they generally just coast along along with their female partners until its too late if pregnancy didn't occur and then just shrug their shoulders that it didn't happen?

If that is the case, then is that why men find it so much easier to walk away from kids? Or dont feel generally as responsible for them? Because they actually weren't all that bothered to begin with. They just go along with having a baby because it's what people do, but not many men actively and purposefully really yearn for it?

Be interested to hear others thoughts amd experiences on this!!

Also ties in with Christian belief in that children are seen as God's blessing so the more children you have, the more blessed you are.

An aspect of Christian belief that thoroughly pisses me off. If you can’t have children has God cursed you?

Women historically haven’t been very successful at getting men to change their behaviour to suit us though have they? If men (as a class) didn’t want children they wouldn’t be having them.

My ex is not a very good dad in reality but he really really wanted kids and he has had another with someone else

He’s very hands on but only when it suits him and in his own way. And yes, the idea is better than the reality. He would pick and choose the parts of fatherhood he liked and left everything else to me. This is what really frustrated me. And as DD2 didn’t turn out quite the way he expected, he kind of gave up on her

I actually think the bar is pretty low for men and parenting, there seems to be an extreme of absolutely fantastic non selfish men vs deadbeats who don’t pay CM or see their kids. Unfortunately the majority in the middle just seem to be doing enough not to be a complete deadbeat and then women are grateful for the little scraps they do get in the way of help. You see it here all the time ‘he’s a great dad’ when actually he is pretty dreadful and the bar is already low. He does a couple of baths per week and has to be nagged to take them to the park on the weekend and this is seen as ‘great’

I totally agree OP many men do want children but when the actual practicalities come about, sleepless nights, tantrums, expensive childcare they moan and complain or worse just leave it to the mothers. I think this is really evident when you see the statistics for how few take up the opportunity for shared parental leave or even becoming a SAH parent and enabling the woman to work.

If most men really love looking after children why is it that it's the woman's career, social life and hobbies that are so often sacrificed.

What absolute rubbish

But it isn't though. You've only to read the multiple and constant threads right here on MN describing all the men who try to avoid the boring bits of parenting and get angry and abusive when confronted about it.

First, some men aren't really men at all. They're kids. They never grew up properly. All they care about is a stupid flash car, or getting drunk with the lads, or whatever.
I discount them from the entire conversation. Who gives a fuck about them? If you married one / had kids with one: sorry.

Of the 'men' men, I'd say a lot of them do want kids, but there's less urgency for them.
Their actual brain/consciousness might want kids just as much as you or I, but they haven't got the hormones and the body clock constantly hammering it home.

Also, if the woman is adding some urgency to whether or not to have kids: perfectly understandable.

But if a man were trying to convince a slightly unsure woman...? Well, it doesn't happen very often because of the body clock issue, but I think that would be a bit weird. I mean, fuck off, it's my body.

Men want to have the benefits of having children but they want to put all the costs of having children on to women

The men I know have wanted to have kids, but havent been as aware of fertility decline linked to age as their partners. Some have been nearing 40 and thinking they have bags of time. I guess it's not surprising given most fertility and age messages are aimed at women - the doctor mentioned it a few times to me in passing but never mentioned it to my husband for example

And don't forget the men who 'want children' when what they really want is to make sure their partner doesn't outstrip them professionally. If she's at home, having and looking after children, she's not winning awards or getting higher payrises than he is: she is in her place and that's the way you want it. It's this type of man who is always talking about having another baby when the current one is barely weaned.

Both my brothers are committed family men. In fact, the older one had a conversation with his then girlfriend to say they needed to get married before they had kids!

Both spend time with their kids (his are in their 20's, younger brother has two under three), they change nappies, take them out and bth brothers do the cooking.

My DH pushed it and did all the working out my ovulation days, ordering strips to test for ovulation etc., well to be honest when he started making the effort I had already fallen pregnant unbeknownst to us. He didn't want to be an older dad (he was late 30s to my mid 20s). He read up on how to produce healthy semen and all the rest he needed to do to counter the effects or age and is far from a passive father.

I see quite a lot of men in the playground who don't appear to enjoy parenting or find it very stressful. I think of you asked them they'd likely agree with you

Watching my husband of 15 years sit down in the car park and sob after we lost our 6th baby, then watching him years later sob as he held Dd. He absolutely longed for children as much as I did.

What absolute rubbish

But it isn't though. You've only to read the multiple and constant threads right here on MN describing all the men who try to avoid the boring bits of parenting and get angry and abusive when confronted about it

Well people are unlikely to come on to MN praising their DHs about their relationship with their children on a regular basis are they, of course the people with problems will come on. Doesnt mean all Dad's are the same. My DH has been a great Dad to our 3 who are now 11, 17 and 26. He done his share of all the hard grotty stuff to not just the fun stuff. I don't think I'm lucky though or it's extraordinary, it's just how it should be. And it's our kids who have reaped the benefits.

In couples where both say they dont want children, it tends to be the man who changes his mind (around 40) and decides to go off with another woman.

Two of my friends wanted children when their partners didn't. One of the DPs reluctantly agreed to ttc, but made it clear from Day One that he would do no parenting whatsoever (he was also a total cocklodger who didn't want to work either). Predictably they split within a couple of years. He occasionally pops over to be Disney Dad but makes no financial contribution. She has no regrets because it was her one chance to have children (she has had no long term relationships since).

The other friend respected her husband's wishes. Unfortunately, he changed his mind when she was too old to conceive and went off to start a family with a younger woman.

Men don't get the pressure that women do throughout their thirties to have children before it's too late. I very much felt this even though I had little or no desire for a family. The pressure was coming from outside - society, doctors, popular culture, mainstream media. I also had gynaecological issues so had to consider how that would impact my fertility. It was something that was frequently on my mind.

I might have been more keen on having dc if I hadn't had to get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed, go on maternity leave, cut my hours, sacrifice my career/pension/lifetime earnings, do the majority of the childcare/mental load/shitwork/life admin, and if I had the option to walk away and start a new life, childfree.

Or, as SGB says, if I could have approached motherhood the way Victorian middle-class women did - with a house full of servants to take care of everyone else's needs so that I could just do the fun parts.

see quite a lot of men in the playground who don't appear to enjoy parenting or find it very stressful. I think of you asked them they'd likely agree with you

I see a lot of women like that to!

Well isn't this thread just a clusterfuck of sweeping generalisations.

I think they rarely bring it up first or push for it. They just can’t say no when it’s brought up and go along with it to avoid being dumped or divorced.

Some of the answers here are freaking me out big time xD as a woman who doesn't want children, it's hard enough to find a man I like, who likes me - let alone think about all that. I already had a feeling it might be men that desired children more than women in this day and age as is :/

It is rubbish though wendy. It’s a sweeping generalisation that in a vast majority of cases just isn’t true.

Of course there are some shit dads but there are shit mums too. The majority of men I know wanted children and are fabulous, involved fathers.

Using mumsnet as a source of information is flawed. Very few people post about their happy relationships and those that do are accused of being smug or naive. You can’t win.

The thread is about a tendency and the attitudes of most men (the wording used in the OP). The OP and many other posters have talked about men who do want kids, no one is saying all men.

But if most men really wanted to spend time with their kids and play an equal part in parenting, most men would be doing that. And I'm pretty sure that most men aren't. Almost all the dads I know do less childcare /child-related work than the mums, even the supposedly feminist and "equal" ones - especially when you take the admin into account, dealing with school, organising kids activities, etc.

I honestly thought my ex was a feminist and believed in equality based on how he talked the talk. Oh yes. But when it came to it, no he wouldn't go part time so we could share childcare - no way in hell. So that meant I had to sacrifice more of my work hours than I'd expected and he had to sacrifice none. I couldn't make him do it.

And when parents split up, almost always the man gets the mostly child-free life and the woman gets the kids and most of the work. Of course many women want to stay with their kids and there's a massive stigma on them if they don't - but the inequality is plain to see.

Men do have to watch their health and ticking clock as do their partners, even if they can technically father children until old age.

www.nhs.uk/news/genetics-and-stem-cells/dads-age-diet-and-lifestyle-may-cause-birth-defects/

I agree OP. All the children born amongst my friends were all on the wife agenda and not the DH. Seriously think most men will go along with nearly anything for a quiet life

Yup I agree.

I wanted kids and dh went along with it. He’s a good dad, no complaints. Not sure what he’d do if we split.

**I honestly thought my ex was a feminist and believed in equality based on how he talked the talk. Oh yes. But when it came to it, no he wouldn't go part time so we could share childcare - no way in hell. So that meant I had to sacrifice more of my work hours than I'd expected and he had to sacrifice none. I couldn't make him do it.

And when parents split up, almost always the man gets the mostly child-free life and the woman gets the kids and most of the work. Of course many women want to stay with their kids and there's a massive stigma on them if they don't - but the inequality is plain to see.**

Definitely this. People are surprised I’ve gone back to work full time, there seems to be the expectation Mothers should work part time.
OH has complained how expensive childcare is and I’ve basically told him I’m not reducing my hours, he can.
I’ve also told him if we split up he’s having full custody and I’ll have the child every other weekend. If that ever happens I probably won’t be able to follow through on that, but expect at least a 50/50 split.