Would it matter less if I died?

[ladybee28]

Bracing myself a bit for a backlash on this, but...

I've heard a number of comments over recent months, exclusively from people who have children, that have left me feeling a bit weird, and I'm trying to untangle my logic from my feelings.

A few weeks ago a well-known musician died, and in telling me about it, my DP (who has a son) added to the story: "He had two kids and everything", shaking his head.

Then this morning a friend was talking about someone she knows who's been diagnosed with brain cancer – and then added extra qualification to the story by saying: "He's got kids, too." (He also has a wife he's been with since he was 15, and three sisters, and parents - but they don't get a mention)

Similar situations have popped up multiple times when people have passed away recently, where the fact that they were parents seemed to be added on to the story as an extra layer of sadness.

It feels like the reversal of their comments would be if a person without children died, they'd sit there and say: "Well, it could be worse - at least they didn't have kids."

And while I KNOW it's awful to lose a parent, and I can't imagine what that must be like for the children in question, it still makes me look at my friend, and my DP, and wonder: on some level, do they think it would matter less if I died, because I don't have children?

Is my life less valuable / important in their eyes because I've chosen not to be a mother?

AIBU to feel a bit weird about this, even though I know that's not explicitly what they mean?

I'd particularly like to hear from people who would probably say something like that, and understand more about where they're coming from – feels easier to have this conversation here with you all than bring it up with people IRL

And I have to echo others. I'm not worried about if I die. I'm worried about when I die. I don't want it to be while my kids are small and still need me. I have always said if my youngest reaches 25 and they all have a job I would then not worry like I do now. A friend recently died of terminal cancer and left behind two little boys. My first thought was for her kids. And still is. Losing a parent is one of the worst things a child can go through

I'm not worried about if I die. I'm worried about when I die.

This really is it, isn't it?

I have a strong family history of cancer (both parents and born grandparents).

DH has a strong family history of heart disease.

We don't have any immediate family (grandparents or siblings) in the country. We worry about what would happen to our DC.

I lost my Mum in my 20s, and while I feel robbed of her guidance as I because a mum, of a grandmother for my DC, and of a proper adult relationship with her - I am grateful that she got me to adulthood. And that she wouldn't have had the utter terror she must've felt when she was diagnosed with cancer years earlier when my DB and I were 5 and 7.

Losing a parent as a child can have a deep effect. It’s considered one of the adverse childhood experiences along with experiencing abuse or being in care because it can send a child’s life off at such a tangent with the emotions of it.
The comment your DP made, as everyone else is saying, is not about the value of the parents life but consideration for the child.

I recently had emergency surgery for a brain haemorrhage. Before the operation I was told of all the horrendous things that would potentially go wrong, and all of the ways the surgery might kill me. The first thing I said was 'you can't let me die, I have a child'... the fact that I also have a husband/mother etc was utterly irrelevant to me at that point, it was the thought of my DC having to try to deal with my death that was too horrendous for me to contemplate. If my child was an adult I imagine that I would have still been very sad for him, but it wouldn't have seemed quite so horrendous.

As pp have said, dying is about the impact on those who you leave behind, and in particular those who are dependant on you.

I find it a really painful thing to hear as someone who is childless (not my choice) as it just reinforces my sense that my life is worthless/pointless and that I dont matter. As a childless woman it's easy to feel quite invisible. I know logically of course that its truly awful when a parent dies, particularly when their children are very young, and its actually something I would think and feel (and maybe even say) myself if I found out someone with a child had died, but it still hurts, logical or not.

Sounds like someone is starting the process of regretting bring childfree. A 50 year old friend said to me the other day that at 48, she went from being childfree to childless.

Anyway, obviously, dependent children losing a parent is a huge thing for them. Young adults are often still pretty dependent.

I think what they mean is that they feel sorry for the kids to lose a parent not that the parent matters more. It’s not about the parent it’s about the kids.

That said, some people do say some stupid shite when people die. I’ll never forget when Reeva Steenkamp, was murdered by Oscar Pistorius. Some people at work remarked that it was such a shame, because she was ‘so pretty’! WTF so it would’ve mattered less if she’d looked like the back end of a bus?

I second earlier comments. It's not about the value of the deceased person's life, just the instinctive gut-punch of empathy that people feel for a child who loses a parent. I lie awake worrying about dying and leaving my DC but I'm still the same person I was before I had her. I haven't somehow increased my value as a human being.

One of my friends lost a parent at a young age and it blew his life apart. He's still having counselling on and off in his forties. Deep down, I suspect that his deceased parent wasn't a very nice spouse or parent. But that doesn't diminish the hurt I feel for my friend when I think of what he went through.

I do sympathise though, OP. People say some bloody silly stuff to childfree people and I completely understand why you'd be sick of it.

I'm scared to shitless of dying now I'm a parent.

It's not fear of actual death it's the thought of leaving my 6yo behind. It'd be so devastating for him to lose his mum so young and I don't want that for him.

That's what they mean when they say 'so sad cos they had kids' - not about the worth of the person who died.

Sounds like someone is starting the process of regretting bring childfree.

There always has to be one, doesn’t there?

It’s not about anyone’s value. It’s because people worry about the massive impact on the kids. I’m a lone parent and terrified I will die before the kids are fully independent. How will they cope? Who will look after them? Financially they are provided form but emotionally they will suffer.

I've had two friends die at a young age in the last few years. One had two very young children (a baby and a toddler), one had no children and no partner. Both deaths were tragic and way way too early (both people were in their 30s) but honestly the one leaving young children behind is going to have more of an impact on those left behind.

I think that you are being a bit silly. People aren't upset of parents dying before their children per se as that normal circle of life. It is the idea of children losing their parents when they are still young and vulnerable. People don't feel that way once the children are adults.

By what criteria should the value of a human life be measured? That the person is needed by others? That they are fecund? That they impact society profoundly?

Life is transient and we will all be lost in the mists of time eventually, whether we reproduce or not, whether we live long enough to see great grandchildren or die before our children are grown, whether we make great discoveries or tread lightly through life and leave barely a trace.
Time is the great leveller.

I think it’s wrong to create hierarchies of worth, although I appreciate at the societal level, it’s sometimes necessary to make stark choices about limited resources.

Everyone is entitled to find their own personal path towards individual meaning and validity. In this regard, those without children should not feel trumped by those with children. If a parent says that they didn’t care too much whether they lived or died until they were charged with the task of parenthood, it can all too easily undermine and hurt those without children through tacit implication. There can be that feeling of - ‘Nobody needs me desperately so my place on the planet is not legitimate’.

But every human being deserves to take part in the mysterious dance of being alive, however their role in the dance pans out.

That would be my message to the OP - hope it’s not too cosmic!

I get you , OP. They obviously don't mean it, but it does come across like that. Also this

What really shocked me is when I was telling one of my friends about it, who didn't know her, she looked at a picture of her and said "Oh that's even worse, she was really beautiful too!"
I thought similar to what you've said, would it be less sad if she was fat and ugly?

It’s not about you! It’s about whether the kids are left with anyone to care for them. To raise them. Or will they end up in care. People are not valued more for being parents but being a parent means there are kids depending on you. And that is why it is a tragedy of a parent dies.

There isn’t a pecking order. But in the whole people are also more shocked if a young person dies compared to an old one because they have had their “innings”. It’s the right time.

That comment about beautiful is just crass. Agreed.

It's not about the person who dies, it's about the children who are left without a parent. It's life altering. Listen to this, it should help you understand.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43323510/martin-lewis-mum-s-death-was-end-of-my-childhood

I think it is more that people are noting the significance of a dependent losing their parent when they say this, not that they are passing comment on the deceased person's value as a person. It is a thought for the living child. On that basis I think YABU.

In terms of those saying its because you don't have children that you don't understand, personally I think that is ridiculous. I didn't have a child for a very long time. I now do. My thoughts and opinions haven't changed on things. I am not more 'woke' now. I had the ability to empathise before.

Sounds like someone is starting the process of regretting bring childfree

It's the same one who pops up on every thread like this. The person clearly has something seriously missing from their life. Either that or they are desperate to justify their reasons for reproducing.

This thread has turned into a grief competition. Not one shred of empathy for the OP and some downright cruel comments. OP, for what it is worth, I get what you are saying.

I think sometimes the lines can be blurred between reporting and eulogy in the media.

If someone is murdered/the victim of manslaughter/other crime, you'll often see something in the news reports like "Terry was a popular man, a devoted husband, dad and granddad, with many friends" - which is what you might expect from his family and friends, but then you see it's the investigating police officer who's saying this, urging people to come forward to help solve the crime.

So that naturally leads you on to think - would it matter to the police if Terry was a curmudgeonly old loner with no family? His death would be no less a crime. Why do the police need to mention this?

And it does come down in the end to certain types of people being seen as more valuable than others, sadly. If you don't fit social norms and do what's expected of you, there are some who'll write you off as worthless.

Let's take a "practical" example, OP:

You and your best friend are kidnapped by terrorists. They're going to behead one of you, let the other go. Your BF has 2 under 10 and their Dad died last year.

Do you (a) flip a coin to see who gets the chop or (b) volunteer for it.

I think (b), which, I'm afraid, means yes... to an extent your life is worth less without kids. Sorry!

It's not about about someone's value or worth, but the impact is different when children are involved. I value my life a lot more now I have children.
I have a large close family my death would be awful for them but for my children it would destroy their entire world. It would fundamentally alter their lives and who they become.

Pyramid gives a good example. Another is the fact pregnant women and women with young children leave first in an emergency, in films, tv and in real life.
That's just the way it is their 'value' is heightened because other lives depend on them.

Do you (a) flip a coin to see who gets the chop or (b) volunteer for it.

No way would I volunteer to be beheaded in favour of someone with DC. I'd do my utmost to convince them to spare us both, but if it came to it, I'd let them flip the coin.