To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

None of our closest friends who we actually see (live within say a 5 hour drive) have dc. We have 2 (eldest being nearly 7). It's never been an issue, except maybe sometimes it's a bit annoying to be woken up early when they stay over at ours.

I have never taken any friends without children to soft play, a children's farm, any sort of children's or family activity. How boring! We once went to an aquarium which was planned by friends who have no children because they wanted to go and thought our dd would enjoy it. I frankly was bored out of my mind.

When we see friends we do normal fun things, like have lunch or dinner (either out or at home), go for a drink at the pub, go for a country walk, sit out in the garden in the sun, go to the beach for a picnic, etc. We aren't exactly out clubbing, but it's not much different than what we've always done with them, except it takes a bit more logistical planning and we have to bring more stuff along for the kids.

Actually the friends we have lost touch with and don't see as often are the ones with dc. They are too busy and exhausted to make plans. Our closest friends are slowly starting to have dc now (one couple is pregnant) and I expect it will be a lot harder to find time for each other soon.

I’ve been in your situation OP. Hit my early 30s and simply had no interest in kids, or spending time anywhere near them!
Now in my early 50s and with a young primary age child still, it has certainly tested my friendships where they didn’t have kids at all. It really does take compromise and perseverance to make these friendships last.

I'm single and childfree, and found that I lost several friends when they had children, but that the parent friends I've kept are just as close, and in some ways closer. But - I do like the children (when they reach the age of 3 or 4) and really enjoy spending time with them. Without that it would be hard.

I find it's also essential to have childfree friends, to get a balance - is that where you're missing out, OP?

It is doable. I have Ds, and my closest friend doesn't (like you not through choice). It takes a lot of sensitivity, respect and compromise as PP have suggested. My friend is currently on her last round of IVF. We discuss it openly, we discuss DS. However I am lucky in that she is the most respectful, kind, understanding person I've ever met and we work it. It take some compromise, but it worth it to retain the friendship. However I do believe each side has to work and compromise. It also helps she works with children, so does understand a lot more than others who dont might

I kind of agree with you... friendships post kids are hard to maintain. from my perspective, my friends who have not had children yet, are generally in that position because they haven't met the right person, rather than not wanting children at all. They are reaching their 40s now and are living amazing lives that are spontaneous and fun, they have active social lives and successful careers etc. I enjoyed a similar lifestyle before I became a mum. but our lives are very different since I had a child. Whilst my career is comparable to theirs and I work full time, my social life has massively changed. I pretty much never go out in the week as I'm too tired and also do nursery pick ups after work (my husband does the mornings). Both my husband and I travel for work a fair bit too, so we are constantly juggling schedules and it doesn't leave much flexibility. I also confess I prioritise weekends with my toddler and family. I would never drag a friend who doesn't have kids to soft play (it's bad enough for parents!) but for me my family time is precious and I love it. There are occasions I go out on a weekend night, but it happens so rarely (especially as I'm pregnant) that it's usually with my husband or for events like birthdays. Most socialising happens in the daytime with other families because it's easy and the children entertain each other while we get some time with friends. I really miss my single friends and definitely wish i'd made more of an effort to keep up with them. But equally I found they were impatient with my tiredness and accommodating baby nap times and breast feeding etc, that during the baby stage they sort of moved on without me. I don't blame them at all, but I feel they do judge me for not being more available. I have tried to get things back on track, but it's not easy. So I feel your pain just from the other perspective. Friendships with young children take a lot of effort on both sides, but I guess strong friendships survive. I really hope mine will get back I track eventually. I haven't changed I just have different priorities to before.

I know where you're coming from, OP. I'm in my early 30s, single, and don't have kids, but luckily quite a few of my friends also don't want children. I can't imagine what I'd do if I was the only one without them.

My oldest friend has a one year old, my goddaughter. She would say our friendship hadn't changed, I expect. But she's been on maternity leave so it's been me who's been taking time away for work to meet her for lunch. And the baby always, always comes. Don't get me wrong, I love her, but Christ it's dull. We have to sit and watch the baby get fed when I am ravenous and DF could've fed the baby beforehand. We can't have a proper conversation because the baby interrupts and my friend is concentrating on her daughter rather than what's being said. It's dull, but I persevere with it because I value my friend. I can't imagine how it would be if that was the same for most of my friendships.

My sister is pregnant and I'm so excited for her, but there are only so many photos of babygros from my mother than I can endure. I'm happy for my sister, and I'll love her baby, of course, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in children or their clothing.

I have full sympathy with their expectation that childless women are the fun, exciting aunties who want to play with the kids. I don't want to play with the kids, particularly. If I did, I'd have my own.

Yes, of course they can!
Although l don't know why would anyone subject a childfree mate to softplay - wait until the kids are in bed then go to the pub!

In truth everyone gets a bit monominded in the early years but it soon wears off and you're desperate for some adult company and proper conversation ... Mine are in their late teens now but l still have childfree friends from before they were born so it is do-able!

I spent years being the person visiting both friends and family when they were all having children. I'd take food over and cook them a meal, they'd talk to me while I did it and then we could all have a big extended family type meal where we all interacted. I see my friends children as an extention of my friends and simply new additions to our circle.

If you both want it to work, you'll find a way. If your not wanting to spend time with your friend's children outweighs your desire to spend time with your friends, it won't work.

I have a feeling one of my best friends feels very similar to you. Our friendship group is made up of 4 of us, and one friend is yet to have children. It’s not her choice she’d love to but her partner wants to wait.
I myself have a 9month old, one friend has 2 children and the other one and expecting a second.
I know she feels just like you do but she hasn’t said.
I try my best to see her without my DD but that’s difficult and not always possible.
When dd was much younger and would happily lie in her pram or on my arms for hours while we had coffee it wasn’t a problem but she’s she’s noises, crawling and into everything and demands my constant attention I can see it in my friends face that it gets on her nerves.
Despite this I do believe it can work, for many years I maintained friendships with friends who had kids when I didn’t. It’s important though that all parties make the same amount of effort and it seems that your friends aren’t making very much effort at all :(

It’s about making the effort. I’ve sat in countless soft plays, got sticky playing with the kids, sat in the kitchen trying to grab a chat with constant interruptions (sometimes it’s not important and the child could do with learning to wait a moment) and I’ve never objected or made them feel bad about doing this stuff - venting here aside. But there has to be some effort on their part occasionally. It would mean the world to some of us if after all the kiddie stuff, our friends would maybe say once in a while ‘you know I appreciate this can’t be all that much fun for you, what do you want to do next time?’ Doesn’t need to be often and of course if there is no partner or the little ones can’t be watched for some reason then fine but usually with my friends this isn’t the case. It can feel very one sided and isolating. Women without children have needs too.

I am genuinely amazed that so many people describe going to soft plays, farms, etc. I've never invited a friend to do that and I can't imagine doing it. I wonder, though, if it's partially about the difference between having a friend with a child and having a friendship circle who all have children? Group activities with my friends are never going to be child friendly because it's just me and that's fine, but I wonder if it sets patterns?

I almost never have DS with me when I see friends. I guess the trade-off to that is that I see them a lot less often than I might if I did take him with me.

For a lot of people, having their first child puts a massive strain on their marriage, and "who gets to go out and when" can turn into a battleground. I have never really forgiven dh for once, when I had a rare night out without the baby, phoning me and just letting me hear dd cry. I know from his perspective he didn't have a clue what to do and was upset himself, but it was a massively dickish thing to do and - unsurprisingly - I cut my evening short. Fortunately my friends were understanding but I can easily see how you could lose friends in the fog of the baby years.

That’s a very good point, panda

For my part, I think the friendships that are long distance have and are going to fade into insignificance. I’ll try to keep up with those who are more local.

It should be possible for your friends to have a child free evening once in a while while their kids are asleep!

I'm childfree by choice and my personal experience is that friendships fizzle out once people have children. I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but it was certainly my experience.

To put it bluntly, friends just no longer seemed interested once their DC came along - everything became about the DC and their family unit. I'm not a child-hater but nor am I any good with children or wildly interested in child-development, so I don't slot into an 'auntie' role - I just became redundant in the dynamic.

Possibly once the children are older, parents come back out of the childcare bubble, but if the friendship has long since died off, that's too late.

I don't socialise much with anyone now, but those I do see occasionally are either childfree like me, or people I met when their DC were already mid-teens and doing their own thing.

My two best friends are 40's and childless. One by choice, one not. They are both live 4-5 hours away. I lived with both of them in my 20's and have known them years. They are two of the funniest people I know.

Our friendship is different but I visit and we holiday together (child free). We make the effort with messaging and phone calls. They remain my closest and loveliest friends. One was my rock through my PND and got it more than anyone. They are both god parents to my DC but rarely ask about them and never remember their birthdays 😂 Doesn't bother me at all. We have done very little 'kids stuff' together.

One friendship struggled more as she was child free not by choice and found it hard but we hung on in and are out the other side. Friendships ebb and flow. We've all changed as people as we've gotten older but have remained firm friends.

I agree with @Pandainmyporridge. Nights out can't just be organised on a whim. You need to make sure your other half can babysit and it wouldn't be the first time we've had a clash and had to rope in grandparents (which actually makes me not want to be out too late so they're not too late driving home).

I've met one or two childless friends in softplay and, bless them, they muck in as it's a bit of a novelty for them but it is very hard to have a conversation when you're chasing a child about.

I remember feeling a bit like you when all my friends were coupled up and I had no one. They wanted to spend their weekends, understandably, with their OH and I often didn't figure. The true friendships withstood that.

I would hang in there until kids are school age and you'll probably start to see a difference.

One thing that occurs to me is that the strong, positive friendships that have maintained since children have come along are friend groups where there's no male/female split, and the group is made up of couples, singles, child havers and child free.

Get togethers have changed with those groups - we're not as young as we used to be and don't want wild nights out!

But instead there's no question of 'baby-sitting' - parents, kids and other adults all keep an eye on the kids but at any given time 75% of the group are chatting, drinking and being adults.

It's the exclusively female groups that have suffered - turning into a cloying mummy-bubble, meet ups dominated by the presence of children or have to be coordinated with the dads looking after kids at home.