To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

Having been childless I know how you feel. However I found that the ‘parent’ friends who were worth it, truly worth it, made an effort to see me without the kids. If your friends aren’t doing that then they aren’t friends at all and tbh would have done this to you even if you had been a parent. I am now pregnant and have kept my childless friends because I’m not self-absorbed in my pregnancy and can talk about other things - but some women go through a self-centred fuge between pregnancy and the toddler years and then wonder where all their friends have gone!!

Maybe, it's hard to know as that wasn't the case. The practicalities are identical though. I can see that if ALL your friends are in the same position, but why do they all live so far away?

It was easier for my friend as the majority of her friends didn't have young children so she got plenty of uncomplicated friendship hours without me!

Op

I had one dc late in life

My 2 best friends have no dc. I must admit though even when dc was a baby I used to try to see them without dc in tow.

I avoid 'mummy' type friends though as would rather have stuck pins in my eyes than sat in coffee shops bouncing a baby on my lap.

Tell your friends that you fancy a lunch or evening out and a good catch up.

My best friend doesn't have children. I think it can definitely work. Obviously when the children are very young you're going to see each other much less, but it's such a short time, then when they get a bit older and can have a babysitter and go to nursery and school then you have much more time and can reconnect. I think it was hard for my friend when I had twins because I was instantly skint, exhausted and unable to leave the house alone for the longest time!

I'm sure she felt rejected because I had to turn down most of her invitations. And I remember feeling incredulous sometimes, "I haven't slept in five days and she wants me to drag my exhausted lactating body out CLUBBING?!"

But we love each other and eventually things became easier. Now we meet for breakfast after I drop the kids at school and they draw her pictures.

My best friend doesn't have children (by choice) and we live a bit of a distance from each other (two train journeys away) but we speak most nights online after my son has gone to bed.

I know she's there when I need her. She stayed at mine whilst I was giving birth so my dog didn't have to go into kennels She's also DS's Godmother.

It can work, if you both want it to. But I understand it can be hard.

They don’t all live far away but even for the ones who live locally, I rarely see them other than at grabbed coffees in places appealing and practical for toddlers.

Grumpy, I’m not sure that I agree with that. I can see it from the other side as it were and I know if it was me, I’d find it difficult too.

If you’re juggling the demands of very small children, work (and even if you don’t work or work part time this means no break from the children) ensuring you see family, in laws, maintain a relationship with your husband, broken nights and money being tight ... I can 100% see that seeing a childless friend isn’t going to come anywhere near top of the list! Why would it, especially when said childless friend can easily be caught up on while the kids play?

And as someone said earlier, when on ML interests change and friendships do too.

I've read your response's and I'm wondering if there's something else going on???

I just can’t see that there is an answer beyond as the childless one, tag along, accept you don’t matter, and hope you start mattering again in due course. It’s sad, though.

and this....

that as a woman who won’t have children of her own for whatever reason, my lot in life is to make my friends children my world and this means the unselfishness of parenting: travelling miles at personal cost and being the ‘crazy aunt’ (which makes me shudder) without the rewards.

This reads to me like you almost a resent or borderline jealous of your friends children.

Are you ok?

Have your friends stopped asking "how are you" and "what's happening in your life"...??

This is why I made the point about being able to differentiate between friends and acquaintances. Your real friends will make the time to ask and listen to you even if they have children.

This has struck a cord with me because I am pretty sure some of my child-free friends feel this about me. I try my best but it’s bloody difficult. It’s not that I don’t care, or that I’m unaware I am prioritising my toddler over my friendships with them - I am all too aware - but I cannot do any better than I am doing now.

(No family nearby, most immediate family sadly dead, DH great but struggles with depression and anxiety so I can’t really just go away and leave him with DD for whole weekends, absolutely skint so can’t buy in more childcare really).

I do my best and my very very close friends have been so patient. I just hope they can stick it out a few more years til I can give more to them because at the moment, much as I would like to, I just can’t.

I think it can work but I’m not sure if it can work when the child free friend actively doesn’t want to be involved with the children at all.

Like it or not, the children are a massive part of your friends lives and always will be. You can’t really expect otherwise.

I think you need to make some more local child free friends and accept that your current friendships will take a back seat until they’re less involved with their children (although I’m not sure what age that’s likely to be )

The common thread on here from child free people who have kept in contact with friends when they became parents is a willingness to get involved with the children - without that I’m not sure if the friendships can survive long and if they do probably not at the same depth.

My best friend for the last, maybe 30 years, has a teenage son whom I've been closely involved with. I have no children. What's the problem? It's very narrow-minded to think childless people can't understand or empathise with parents or with children.

I’ve tried really hard to avoid that accusation, nurse, because it’s ridiculous and I have explained over and over that I understand it is how things are.

I am not jealous, but I do not wish my identity to be as some sort of selfless woman who adores children so much that she will shelve her wants and wishes to spend time with other people’s! The blunt truth is that my friends children are nice, as most children are, but I don’t enjoy spending time with them because, well, they are 3 and I am 38!

Magpie I do understand it’s difficult and thank you for acknowledging this, at least. And in all honesty, you SHOULD prioritise your toddler over even your closest friends!

DH and I are childfree by choice and we don’t have any friends who are parents. Those friendships fizzled out very quickly once the children came along.

A lot of people become quite intolerable once they have children. Very self-entitled and a bit holier-than-thou. Making plans with them is difficult and when you do all they want to talk about is their child. There is also the expectation that you’ll help out and babysit etc (which I would never ever do).

Most of my friends have children. The pre-school years can be difficult as they are so much at the beck and call of their children's needs but once they're at school the balance can shift again.

When the children have grown up and left home you're much more on an equal footing.

It is interesting, sprinkle, and I’m glad you replied as I was starting to wonder if I was the problem!

I think perhaps parents and non parents can have very different ideas of the friendship working. My friends would probably say the friendship works because they still see me regularly and I love their children and I am happy to travel, etc. The truth is, I’m not, or not so much now.

The only time I stepped back from friendships with people who were parents was when I had been trying for a baby with no luck for years and sometimes it was just too painful.

Now I’m a parent myself I have my friends who are parents and also friends who aren’t parents yet and we all make it work.

I think it's a lot less to do with the ages of the kids than the personalities of the people involved.

My local friend group all have family nearby who are very involved in childcare. Can get help no problem. If they ever really want to do something, the support is there.

But they're so baby-absorbed that all they post, do, talk about, and arrange is pretty much centred around their babies. There's no room for talking about the news, or books, or tv, or anything else.

Whereas my original friend group are scattered to the four winds, and have less family support, but we manage just as many get togethers as the locals. Babies/toddlers are either left with their dads, are incidental to what we're doing, or we chat about them.

I'd say 8/10 messages from my best home friend are entirely non baby related and based on existing banter. I show interest in her baby, but it accounts for a tiny amount of our conversation. Friendship goes both ways, and it's unrealistic to expect child-free people to be endlessly interested in you if all you do is talk about your baby!

@moonwashigh I see it the other way, as a lot of the benefits to having children without the hassle of unending sleepless nights or mountains of nappies! I have an older Godchild who I wasn't very involved with at all, and decided I didn't want to be that person with these guys. I don't feel forced into any role, (apart from I am childless not by choice like you) I have chosen to be close to these kids in the hope that they have somebody to come to if they have troubles they don't want to talk to their parents about.

I pay the cost of fuel or train ticket to visit them, but I have free bed and board for a weekend with my best friend. I'd much rather sit around the kitchen table with a cup of tea for hours putting the world to rights than go out for a meal and drinks, which would cost a similar amount to the cost of travel. It works for me. I wasn't really aware it was a stereotype, and I don't sit in that role with all my friends who have children.

The one circle I haven't squared is the cost and hassle of presents! I have three birthdays and christmases to buy for now, she has one! (And I feel guilty for leaving out her husband 🤣) I earn a lot less than her and I'm not sure she realises how little I do earn. This year I've found presents for the kids for a bargain £5 each. I think I'm just going to have to cut my cloth.

I had DD at 21 and none of my friends or acquaintances had DC, they still don't and won't for the next decade I expect. I simply see them on my own without DD, it's nice for me as I get adult time where I'm not being distracted by a wayward 3yo. I had a long weekend at a friend's house recently and it was blissful. When DD was little she was with me 24/7, but then friends generally came to my house to watch a film have a takeaway and chat, DD would be asleep in her pram in the next room. It's about accommodating differing needs, one of my friends is teetotal and vegan, I adjust what I chose to do with them to suit, she was happy to do less active things once I had DD. That's what friends do. The early days of raising children are quite overwhelming, but it doesn't mean people can't make the effort.

My 3 closest friends don't have children, but we are as close as ever! It might help that we were all settled and prior to me having DS weren't going out clubbing etc anymore really. I was comfortable leaving him with DP at around 6 months so we do go out in the evenings, and at weekends etc during the day without DS sometimes. If he does come along its only if I've arranged something or if I ask if they mind when they ask me. Honesty is the key, sometime stuff is arranged and I just can't afford it or find childcare, and it's not suitable for DS which is fine, other times they'll come to the petting zoo or something. It was hard in the newborn days to remember to reply to messages etc, but made sure not to just mention children all of the time and chat about other stuff, I genuinely wanted to keep involved in their lives and what was going on; but they understood if it took me a while to reply. I think it can, but it takes I suppose compromise on both sides at time, I have lost casual friends as out friendship was based on getting cocktails after work or something.

It wasn’t a criticism of you, womens sorry if it came over that way, it’s just it isn’t for me personally. The blunt truth is I don’t want someone else’s child to be involved in, but ideally I’d like to experience having and parenting my own. That’s obviously far more honest than I’d ever be in real life, but if it isn’t to be it isn’t to be.

I don't have kids, some of my friends do. Yes, it might involve going to lunch at a café or just spending time at each others house BUT we also have childfree nights out where they get a baby sitter/DP stays home with the baby. Or we if one cant get someone then we go to their house once the kids are in bed.

@moonwashigh sorry I did get a bit defensive there - I did understand that you didn't mean it as a dig at my choices!

Tbh it sounds like your friends aren't making the effort. I'm not at all child friendly and I've managed to keep friendships with parents because while I sometimes spend time with the children, they also sometimes get a sitter and we don't have them in tow.

When that's not possible we arrange phone calls for when kids are in bed.

I have lots of non-parent friends. With any friendship the key is for both parties to be investing in it! Some friends are the kind I see regularly, others a few times a year or on holiday but they're all valuable relationships to me.

I'm also wondering if there's more going on. You feel unimportant - that's not a kind of feeling that can be fixed by someone else, even spending time one on one with a good friend.

Do you think maybe because of that feeling, you are coming across a bit self centred and your friends have pulled back a bit as a result?

In terms of practicalities of who visits who and on what day, have you tried inviting out the long distance friends specifically e.g. Saturday afternoon for a nice long tea/dinner child free? Any decent DH would be pleased to hold the fort while their DW had a catch up with a good friend once every 4-6 weeks or so. It is difficult though as the success of that hinges on whether or not your friends are happy to leave DH in charge and also take that chunk of time away from domestic work and committments like swimming lessons which fill up weekends.

You could drive there or you can ask them to meet halfway.

Definitely try to make some new friends locally too.