To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

I feel for you OP, I do have a child but I can totally imagine how you must feel.
I agree with a previous reply that this time doesn't last forever but as you say it is still many years if they have more than one child.
I do think your friends should make more of an effort to see you in an evening or to arrange childcare so you can have time without kids there. This would be good for them to have a break too!

Have you got friends that don't have children?

My best friend doesn't have kids and it's not affected our relationship at all. Organising to see her is a bit trickier but we are as close today as we were when we lived in each other's pockets when at uni. She dotes on my kids as well and is always super understanding and sympathetic if something comes up. She doesn't want kids either and it's never been an issue at all and sincerely doubt it ever will be.

Just saw your latest post. With my friend, we have talked fairly endlessly and openly about the fact that she has not chosen to be childless. I have listened to her weep and have never tried to say that I think it’s ok. But I have said that i will take my lead from her as to when and whether she wants to talk about it and I have also said that I know there is nothing I can say to make it better). I am sorry that you are in a difficult place OP. It must be very very hard.

It’s easy to say that, sam, but less easy on a practical level. Obviously, it depends on your setup, but not all these are local friends.

I don’t expect my friends to abandon their children for a couple of days to come and see me but then this inevitably means I have to go and see them, and the children are there, of course they are there, that’s their home!

Even with local friends, weekends are very much family time I have found.

I just can’t see that there is an answer beyond as the childless one, tag along, accept you don’t matter, and hope you start mattering again in due course. It’s sad, though.

Well yes epic but it isn’t really about that, even. It is a bit painful, but children exist and I’m not someone who believes that I can avoid that fact.

It’s more the fact that I don’t know how much anybody enjoys soft play and what have you even with children, that’s something you tolerate because you love your kids, so for me, it’s even worse!

She also buys my kids vinyls for when they're older

I very rarely meet my childless friends with my DC in tow. I don't think that would be fun for anyone really. Can you not meet in the evening when the kids are in bed (and their DP is at home/they have a babysitter?)

You need local child free friends op definitely. Spending time with other people’s toddlers is hideous and only tolerable if you have one yourself.

I once had a friend who confessed to me, after she had a toddler in tow, that she thought that I had lost interest in her as a person. Whereas, as she now realised, I was just trying to navigate her deathtrap of a house (open fire, bitey dog, iron staircase, bottles and glass everywhere).

While I do think it is age dependent, some people are obsessed with their children to the detriment of their friendships. So no adult conversation is possible because every time a child pops up the adult fully immerses themselves with the child and dropping whatever adult they are talking to.

I was always of the "Here's a biscuit and bugger off, I'm trying to talk" persuasion. So at least I showed willing to have an adult chat.

My bf doesn’t have children (and never married), my DCs are teens and we’ve never had an issue w friendship over the kids. She loves my children and they love her!
When they were younger she never came to soft play etc, I met her in the evenings leaving dh at home. Even when I was breastfeeding I remember going out w her locally for a couple of hours in between feeds (with my phone on in case of emergency wake up).
I’ve known her since my teens so we’ve grown up together. It might be different for a newer friendship though.

Well yes you see just, my friends would probably say the same but actually I do feel really out of things and very unimportant.

Ive managed 8 years since with my best friend had her first child (now has 2) andbi moved 5 hours away.

I'm the one who has more flexibility to travel, so I travel to them almost exclusively now. They luckily have a spare room so I stay a couple of nights, which means time with the kids (I'm godparent to them both and adore them, and yes I love fun at a farm or soft play with them), and we get to sit and do grown up chatting after they have gone to bed. We both have less time to chat on the phone so that's kinda gone out the window at the moment, but I make the effort to go up for each kid's birthday party so we see each other at least twice a year. It works for us, thank goodness. I think if you're not a fan of their children and children's activities (last month when I visited I sat painting a mug with the older one while chatting to my friend who was cooking us all dinner) it must be very hard. As I say, I'm just a big kid and dive in to whatever the kids are into, and revel in my role as the slightly crazy fun aunt!

Mums meet other mums at playgroup, school etc and develop other friendships which the childless friend usually doesn’t get involved with. Many happen during the day when the childless friends are generally at work anyway. Play dates are usually prioritised over lunch dates with childless friends as there are lots and mums are a support group for each other. Weekends are time for family things. Not necessarily prioritised as time for the childless friends and the mum to meet up.

Having said that it also gives the childless people more time for hobbies and friends surrounding them etc.

As long as you keep in touch regularly you will get a bit more time once the children are older. Too much older right enough and they have their own babies and once more their own mother becomes involved in that so the childless friend again doesn’t see her mum pal much.

It just depends on priorities. Mums, don’t forget your childless friends when your world revolves round play dates and husband. Friends, get other friends to fill the void and don’t forget your mum friends.

I have 2 kids 3.5 and 5years.
I have 2 very close childless friends and i dont see them that often (maybe once every 2 months or so), but thats mainly because they are always busy!

When i do see them its in the evening over dinner or we go out for a drink. Very rarely do i bring my kids along because of the reasons you stated.
BUT i have a DH who watches the kids then after work and they live close by (under an hour drive).

I guess it depends on these factors a lot and also on how much effort each person is willing to put in.

I had my first child when I was 21 and all my friends ditched me (a group). They were frustrated I couldn’t join in a lot of their nights out

I am only close friends with 1 of them now mine are teenagers, she never had kids and we rebuilt our friendship in the last 5 years but my DC are rarely involved.

I missed 15 years of these friendships with them because I did have kids, and the others all have very small kids now starting in their 30’s so I am not whatsoever interested in hanging out with them 🤷🏻‍♀️ and don’t make any effort anymore. Maybe they know what it was like for me back then!

I also have another single childless friend and again they don’t have any interest in my DC within our friendship so I tend to see them once a month perhaps.

I don’t have many local mum friends anymore because I lost touch with them after primary, I have always worked full time and they didn’t so they had more time to socialise than me (coffees etc)

I have one friend who lives abroad who I am close with who has kids too so I have one mum friend 😂

It’s been quite hard but I am not resentful of it anymore, I just get on with it! Work and kids have kept me pretty occupied. I hated being a SAHM it was lonely

You see, I think this is by and large the issue - I just don’t think I want that as my identity, at all. I intend no disrespect to you in saying so womens, it’s just it feels horribly like the sort of identity people with disabilities used to be pushed towards (think Cousin Helen from the Katy books) - that as a woman who won’t have children of her own for whatever reason, my lot in life is to make my friends children my world and this means the unselfishness of parenting: travelling miles at personal cost and being the ‘crazy aunt’ (which makes me shudder) without the rewards.

I'm the only person in my group of friends that is child-free. When their kids were aged between 0 - 11/12 it was an unspoken compromise that our socialising had to include child-friendly activities. I didn't mind because I was able to see my friends and have a relationship with their children. Now that the children are older teens/ adults in their twenties I now mostly see my friends without kids (unless it's a family event).

True friendships grow, evolve and mature beyond the early child focussed years. And having kids around keeps you in touch with current music, technology and language aka "speak" etc.

So in my experience friendships between parents and non-parents can work.

It's also at this stage that I think it's important to differentiate between friendships and acquaintances.

Eli, that has been my experience really.

Pookie, I think it’s just hard being the “odd one out”, isn’t it?

Yes it can work. Closest friend is childfree (by choice) and lives a 90 drive away. And I'm a single parent so no partner to take up the slack if we wanted to go out.

The preschool years are difficult though and our friendship has strengthened now that DS is a teen because I know I know how accomodating she was when he was little and did 90% of the travel.

In the same vein, she lived with me rent free for about 3 months when she needed to. That's what you do for a close friend, your friendship needs to evolve all the time.

But it is difficult if they aren't that close and MANY of your friends have small children.

I think it is hard. My best friend is child free by choice and I always arrange to see him without my DS now that DS doesn't just sleep in the pram. He prefers day time meet ups anyway which helps so DS stays in with DH and I go out for lunch. I would never suggest soft play or similar as he just wouldn't come.

It depends if you’re situation is also ttc or not as I would struggle to hang out with babies in that situation

I thought they were close ... but kew I do think being a single parent is a bit different, in your case. Had you had a partner, you may have found that friend having to travel 90 miles with no ‘exchange’ in return did phase out.

I think it does become much harder. I’m on mat leave at the moment and I have 3 days where my 3 year old is in nursery. I’ve turned down quite a few coffee mornings etc with friends I made first time round because quite frankly, I don’t really want to spend that time with other people’s pre-schoolers when I’m having a break from my own and spending time with the baby. I can see if you don’t have children at all, the prospect of going to a soft play for a coffee is unlikely to appeal!

I haven't had this problem, but I have always enjoyed child free meet ups with friends, as well as with children, so there's a balance. My child free friends tend to be local too, so it is easy to meet for dinner in the evening. You say your friends aren't local - we have family abroad, and they do tend to come to us now rather than we to them, because it would cost us a fortune to travel with the children. We do try to make up for them making the effort though, we take them out to dinner, that sort of thing, and it isn't forever.

Honestly OP I am not sure I understand the point that you are making. Yes I hate soft play etc and I don’t meet my childless friends at soft play. The point I was making is that if you care about a friendship you just do the things that make that work.