To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

Damn, it would be helpful if people didn’t take what I was saying and twist it to make it appear that I was implying something so horribly selfish (as well as ridiculous) when I’ve repeatedly said the exact opposite.

I’ve repeatedly said I understand that friends have got to put their kids first. Not only do I expect this, I encourage it.

As I said over the page, I suppose I’m trying to work out where my place in the world is.

I was the childless one for about 8 years (just had my first) literally all of my friends have had at least 2 in that time. Only a couple of things that changed of any real significance.

Conversation topics tended to be more child oriented.
They stopped trying to get me to go out every weekend bonus because I'm actually quite unsociable
Catch ups started to be more in the house than out and about and more me visiting them, understandable with a little one.

We all started to make a point of going out together once a month childfree, there's 6 of us and we don't all get out every month, but we definitely see eachother at least 6 times a year without children and partners.

Things only change massively if you let them. Don't forget, they are still them, being a parent it's something they do, it's not who they are.

I only have a couple of friends, neither have children. I don’t see them very often because we lead incredibly busy and different lives in different parts of the world but we still get along the way we always used to.

I think you do need to accept that people naturally change when they become parents so in turn, friendships will change. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. If you care about your friends I think you’d deal with the odd day in a place like a local farm.

I think it can work really well my mum is 55 and her best friend (who wasn't able to have children) is 65, her best friend has been in our lives since forever and she has been amazing to us and with us and they have the best friendship ever so it definitely can work with the right people!

I think maybe you need to be more blunt with your friends about your needs.

I'm happily childfree but a ludicrous number of my friends have kids. They're all aware that while I'm delighted for them, I'm generally not that interested in spending loads of time with the kidlets - will say hi and buy them unicorn related shit, but I'm not into babysitting or talking solely about the children.

All my friends get a three year grace period when they've had a baby, during which I accept that they will be preoccupied, busy and not great at replying to messages. If things in our friendship haven't picked up by 3 years into parenthood, then it's time for an honest conversation.

Children are not allowed in my house between the age they start crawling and 8 years old, because it's an Aladdin's cave of a deathtrap filled with stuff I actually like, and I hate supervising other people's children 😂 we meet elsewhere and it's not been a problem yet.

You matter, and probably more than you think to these friends - but if they are under the illusion that you're happy to travel and go to soft play, they're not going to argue for another way.

I don't dislike kids but I don't love them either, and my friends know this so they don't become the centrepoint of our friendship.

But don't feel you have to play the crazy aunt or accept a role - I would strongly suspect your friends don't know you feel this way and would be sad that you do!

One of my very cloesest friends has no children. No interest in having them either. She is politely intereste din mine (more so as they get older) But we have other things in common and we focus on those.

For most people their children are the priority and grandchildren as an extension of this if they have them. Then partner, if they have one. Then their own family - their own parents, siblings and grandparents if they have them. Then friends. And often there’s a pecking order with friendships with those with the most longevity given priority over newer friendships.

I don't recognise that pecking order, and I wonder whether you are imposing it on your friends. My child is of course a priority, but so is my job (which, as with you, has provided most of my most recently-made friends), and obviously, so is my husband, but we both also recognise that life outside the family is absolutely key for both of us, so we both pursue our separate friendships seriously and prioritise them -- I think this contributes to why we are happy together after almost 28 years. I am not only a parent and a spouse.

My friends are considerably more important to me than my family (in the sense of parents and siblings), and not necessarily the most long-lived friendships. My closest friend, and the one I see most often, has been in my life less than three years. My other newest friends are all without children, though at least one would like them but hasn't found the right man, and doesn't want to go it alone.

But maybe you move in more

I think @jillandhersprite has it spot on. It would be as well to take a bit of a step back from these friendships and find others to focus on. Don’t drop your original friends by any means, not least because they’ll probably be around more again in the future.

I absolutely feel your pain because I am the only one out of my old friend group not to have children (by choice). Some of those friendships have survived and some have not. Those that survived did so because effort was made on both sides. I absolutely understand that a parent’s life has changed beyond all recognition, they’re shattered, it takes them an age to leave the house and their world revolves around their baby. But there has often been little understanding about how my life has changed when I’ve found my friends disappearing and my social life restricted to that which is child-friendly or fits in around the children.

Those friendships that survived and came out even stronger were the ones where my friend would make as much effort as they could in return - maybe they would have preferred not to have left the baby with their partner for the afternoon, or preferred not to have foregone an early night, but they did it because they valued our friendship, and because they appreciated the effort I’d made towards them (accepting that catchups often got cut short or had to fit around/include small people etc).

It cuts both ways and it’s entirely understandable that you feel the way you do. I’ve had to accept that some friendships aren’t coming back but I’ve made new friends, including those who have older children. Still hurts though

I did say ‘and often’, sorrowful, but anyway the point is that in answer to ‘maybe you need new friends’ is a bit of a glib response - it is hard making friends as an adult and when you don’t have an automatic thing there to bond you, whether that’s becoming a new parent or a workplace, it’s harder still. Lots to mull over.

It’s hard, bright, there’s no doubt about it.

Sorry, posted too soon. Maybe you move in more family-oriented circles.

And I think @undercoveraessedai's post is spot-on in terms of making your needs known.

Oh, and as for “where your place is” it’s wherever you want it to be. I quite like some of my friends’ children but only in small, controlled doses. I have little interest in kids generally so I don’t feel I have to be an unofficial aunt or anything. I’m just me :)

Apologies then OP, it was this line that I must have misunderstood "Plus, even if they don’t have children they will probably have partners, parents, other friends."

Yes, and ... your point is what?

I did not go on to state that there was anything wrong with that, but my point is that you extracted that line out of its context to try to upset me.

From personal experience I don't think they can. I have two friends in particular who I've drifted away from since they became parents. (I don't have kids). I found that when their kids were young we stayed in touch more often, but as they grew, they gravitated more towards other people with kids so their kids could play together. I see one of these friends maybe once or twice a year now, always at her house so the kids can play. The other I haven't seen socially for a few years.

OP, perhaps you need to learn to be happy in your own company, or to reframe how you see friendships.
I've found that in my teens and early 20s female friendships were very intense, "best friends" were everything. Then careers, partners, children, time with elderly parents, siblings and nieces/nephews etc take over and yes, friends do slip down the list of priorities, as you've already realised. It's just how it is.
I do still have close friendships but it's not the same as before, it works but it does take more compromise on both sides.
It doesn't sound like your friends are willing to compromise. As for you, it seems you have the following two issues: 1) you want your own children and feel sadness about it 2) you don't want to spend time with other people's children.
Both of those things are valid and you don't have to put yourself into situations that cause you unhappiness. It does mean you have to take a step back from these friends though. Find something you enjoy doing and focus on that. I met lots of friends, most of them childless, through a hiking group. If you don't like walking it doesn't have to be that, there are lots of other clubs and activities where children aren't the focus.
But, don't set so much store by "BFFs". I've found that as a 30-year-old adult, friends are more of a bonus in my life rather than the focus of it.

I have children & most of my friends do except one. She is one of my best friends but I wouldn't ever expect her to spend her time doing kiddie things. When we meet I organise childcare and we go for dinner/ drinks etc. Its not as often as id like as its not easy to get kids minded. But when we do meet we can chat properly. She has only met my kids a few times. Yanbu to not want to do soft play etc. Your friends should make more of an effort even if it's not too often.

I am happy in my own company, I think, more so than many people. Just the same, you do need some social interaction if you aren’t going to be a complete hermit.

Merella, thanks, it is interesting that a lot of people who are insisting that yes, you can stay friends and the friendships don’t have to change are actually the ones with children. I suspect a lot of my friends would say the same but actually for me, it’s not really a whole load of fun.

OP I haven't RTFT but I absolutely value my friendships with people who haven't had children, even when mine were very young (now teens). Those friends mean as much to me now as before I had DCs.

The ones without children have mostly really interesting careers, have great holidays and really interesting hobbies and social lives etc. I find their company enriching and would miss them dreadfully if they drifted away.

Yes it is usually them who suggests meeting up, but being a mum tends to make me just go with the flow rather than be proactive!

I understand where you're coming from - I am in my late 30's and child free (not by choice). My 2 best friends live away (1 an hour away, 1 6 hours away). They both have small children and although I'm happy to chat about the kids etc. I have no particular interest in spending any time with their kids. I keep in touch with them by text and phone a lot (working around our respective schedules can be a nightmare but we manage, even if we both have to get up extra early or something to fit a call in). The friend who lives an hour away has an autistic child with increased needs, works part time, has a husband who works erratic shifts and is only just learning to drive so I almost always go to her, it's just easier and I don't want to add more hassle to her life. She does say a lot how grateful she is that I always drive to her so she recognises the effort, and sometimes she insists on paying for dinner or whatever because of the petrol / parking cost for me, but I really don't mind doing it and once she can drive / has a less hectic life I'm sure things will even out more. She knows it's her I want to see and not her kids (or a very distracted version of her if the kids are there) so she makes an effort to see me without them - we meet on weeknights for a quick late dinner once the kids are in bed, and once every few months we meet at the weekend and do grown-up, child free stuff. She likes to have a breather from her kids sometimes. We literally have to book the dates we'll see each other months in advance but we always have a date in the diary for our next visit. The friend that lives 6 hours away, we tend to meet halfway a couple of times a year and have lunch and do something fun. Just a half a day. Again, she likes the excuse for a break! Can you not meet friends halfway? If they're not willing to do that sometimes it's a bit inconsiderate. Or just tell them the cost of always coming to them is a bit much so as much as you don't want to, you might have to cut down. It might not have occurred to them that this is an issue (although it should) an maybe they will want to contribute towards fuel or pay for the activity you're doing or something.

I have had to accept that I won't see my friends as often, that I'm not a priority (rightly so), that seeing them will often require military level planning and that they may cancel last minute sometimes and that they're not up for late nights. But then they have had to accept that I don't want to spend time with their kids (which I am open about) and won't be attending kids birthday parties etc., and that we have different priorities. We each respect the way the other's life has worked out and we don't assume one of our life and choices is more important / valid than the others if you know what I mean. We're lucky because we are very honest with each another and have old and strong friendships that handles that very well!

I had a friend who had kids and became very inflexible, child obsessed, expected me to just fit in with her life and schedule etc and we just grew apart and eventually stopped having contact. There was no massive drama, I think we both just accepted that we weren't on the same page with life and weren't willing to compromise enough for each other. You do outgrow friends sometimes. It's a bit sad but it's life.

If you are only seeing your friends in child-centric scenarios then maybe either you're not being clear with them that you're not keen on this (in which case they don't know any better so you can't blame them for always doing it), or they just aren't willing to compromise and see you both with and without the kids. If the lack of willing is the case then maybe it's time to take a step back from the friendship. If you don't feel able to tell them you don't really want to spend time with the kids then maybe it's not that great a friendship anyway.

To fill the social life gap that I was left with once they had kids I had to make more effort with less close friends that I probably wouldn't have spent as much time with otherwise, and make an effort to develop friendships with previous acquaintances. It's not easy, and I will never be as close to these friends or have an easy way with them that I have with my 2 best friends, but I have a social life that I'm pretty happy with.

I've had both - I had my baby late so for a long time I was the childless friend. I realised that my friends' lives had changed and I either embraced that or stopped knowing them, so I spent time getting to know my friends' children and having fun with them in coffee shops and family friendly pubs. Then unexpectedly, IVF worked and I now have the littlest of the group, who idolises her bigger playmates. But it was never what I'd expected - I was resigned to being the fun aunt. And it was actually pretty wonderful, with its own rewards. I'd recommend trying to engage with the children if you value the adult friendships.

Forgot to mention that I always try and see them on my own in a cafe or restaurant, rather than with my DCs, so we can chat for hours.

You mention geographical distance - IME this is a barrier to maintaining friendships, even when both friends have no DC and even more so if one or both do.

For example, if friends live within a short, convenient journey of each other, it’s much easier to meet up without DC.

"But, don't set so much store by "BFFs". I've found that as a 30-year-old adult, friends are more of a bonus in my life rather than the focus of it."

I'd have to disagree here - particularly if you're single, friends are enormously important and often your primary source of love and connection. (I adore my cats and my Mum is amazing, but my friends are central and crucial to my happiness). Friends shouldn't be viewed as just a fun or disposable extra to your family life, that does a good friendship a great disservice.

Obvs I don't know how this relates to OP's situation but one of the reasons my friendships are strong is that they don't consider me secondary or a bonus - they value me as they do their partners, children, etc and I do likewise.