To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

Oh op, I could be writing this post myself. Except a few months ago i thought, that's it, I've had enough of accepting the crumbs of friendship and fitting in with their plans ( the other month i sat through the whole dora movie because apparently I'd enjoy it and my friends 10 year old son would be devastated if I didn't go). Enough. So I've pulled myself up by the bootstraps and joined every vaguely interesting meet up group i can find. I no longer plan to be the nice, flexible me who gets their social fix through a snatched coffee during school hours or has to wait patiently for a question to be asked regarding myself. Some so called friends really are just crap and can only see things from their own perspective.

I think it's ok to feel like this. In life there will be times we feel sad and lonely and unsure where our place in the world is. But you have to be willing to help yourself. Noone else is in charge if your happiness but you. You seem to want to be happy but you are depending on others to make you feel so. It's hard but you have to pull your socks up and go out and do things you enjoy or think of things that make you happy and do that. The rest will follow. Reading through it seems to be more about how you're feeling in general and less about your friends.

No, knit, I don’t think that’s true. I’ve been very clear that I don’t expect my friends to provide a service for me.

Just the same, for a friendship to continue there has to be something in it for me, and at present there is not.

That is all, really.

Where that leaves me as a childless woman with no friends - I don’t know!

its actually fairly similar when your kids are at completely different stages too OP. If someone has teenagers, its going to be hard to have proper catch up time with someone whos got a lairy toddler. Thats why mums of toddlers and babies often make friends with each other because they are all in the same zone. Quite often these friendships fizzle out as kids get older too

I've made the friendships with Childress friends work by mixing kiddy days with non kiddy evenings. My friend doesn't necessarily enjoy the kiddy days but it's a compromise isn't it, she tries really hard and I am forever grateful she invited dd to things just to see me and I try very hard to get nights off to see friend even when I'm so bloody tired I feel like I'm closing in on retirement despite not being old !

Childless*

I'm retired and most of my closest friends are childless (I'm not).

I have a couple of friends who are grandparents and I'm finding they just aren't good company for me any longer. Still the same lovely people but they are completely absorbed by their grandchildren, for whom they inevitably provide childcare.

I think while children are in the picture they are going to be a bit of a barrier, unless you can genuinely enjoy their company in their own right.

It's hard, I know. I suppose it helped me slightly that my friends had also made adjustments for me over the years. While I was building my career I spent all my time and energy working crazy hours, and my friends were very good about juggling meetups around my work schedules (our usual Boxing Day booze ups became Christmas Eve suppers and nights out were often brunches because I was working shifts). So I suppose when their lives changed, it was easier for me to realise I had to adapt too.

Dear Moonwashigh, I do think it is possible, but of course children change friendships. Having kids is like . . . when a snake swallows a deer and it takes a very very long time to digest. Eventually your friends will be normal again. But for 18 years, their kids are going to be their first priority. I don't think my non-child-having friends understood that my first priority was always my kids' survival, and that I not only expected myself and myself to sacrifice everything, including our lives for them, but on some level, I would expect my friends to put my kids' welfare before their own if necessary. Because parenting is that desperately important. It's a life and death responsibility. It is so complicated, so hard, so easy to fuck up, so delicate, that it is terrifying. It's not that you make life and death decisions every minute. But you can be called upon to make a life upon decision ANY minute. You are responsible for that person every single hour of their lives. It's hard to understand that feeling of never really being off the clock if you don't have kids. But it doesn't mean you don't love and enjoy your friends.

I think part of it depends on why you don't have children. If you are childfree by choice, I think parents are more naturally inclined to assume/accept that whilst you may like kids, you're not particularly interested in them featuring heavily in your social life. Therefore they are more likely (if they want to maintain the friendship) to make the effort to spend time with you sans kids. There isn't really even a need to have a conversation about it, but if one happens it is not taken particularly personally by the parent.

If you are childless not by choice, it becomes a little bit more of a minefield. There can be an assumption that because you wanted kids, you would (should even) be delighted (or at the very least comfortable) to spend the majority of your time together with their offspring. Any suggestion that you'd rather meet up without kids sometimes, is more readily/more easily taken as a sign of jealousy or bitterness on your part.
Or (very) occasionally - just disbelief and anger that you are turning down their 'charitable gift' of allowing you to experience motherhood-by- proxy for an hour through their child.
Either which way, the conversation normally has to come from you ('hey could we maybe meet up one night without the kids'?) and is taken a LOT more personally/defensively by the parents...

Please note I do recognise this is not indicative of all mums!

But for 18 years, their kids are going to be their first priority.
Yes but unless you are talking about SN then parents are also able to focus on friendships long before their kids are 18 if they want to. Plenty of people with kids past babies, toddlerhood do have close friends and do make the effort, others choose not to. That is fine, but own it.

marellaspirit Are you me?

I don’t think it can work, but obviously only speaking from my personal experience. I don’t have many friends; hated my school, didn’t go to uni and moved jobs/homes a lot over the last few years. I do have one person I kept in touch with but we barely see each other since she had kids. She just isn’t really interested in doing the shopping trips we used to do or having a night in with a film and takeaway (couldn’t do the latter now due to location TBF) and only seems to want to do stuff with her other friends who are parents.

I don’t mind travelling but on the rare occasions we have met up, she’s text as I’m on the way either to cancel (leaving me travelling many miles for no reason) or to say “Oh x really wanted to see you so I’ve brought them.” Meaning we can’t have a proper chat for all the reasons mentioned. Her DC is about 5 and no reason her DH can’t have them but it’s like she can’t go anywhere without them.

Apart from....her birthday was a few months ago and I wasn’t asked to the (child-free) weekend that was organised. It hurt a LOT. In fact, typing this has made me realise we have grown too far apart and no longer really have a relationship.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again...

This is my experience too, even with family members. If the parents in question don't acknowledge the effort you make, plus the fact that, if you are childless not by choice, it can also be emotionally draining, that can be the death knell for the relationship.

I didn't actually answer your question. Yes, I think it's possible but it depends a lot on circumstances, attitude and personality. I kind of lost my DSis to motherhood for about a decade. We have our relationship more or less back now. If it had been a friend I might have given up.

I have friends with and without kids. One of my very best friends is child free by choice. She lives a distance away but we talk regularly, meet up when we can and never have I taken my kids with me. Even my mum friends I try to get a few kid free evenings in with, the dynamic changes completely when you have your spawn in tow.

On the flipside, I lost someone I thought was a very good friend because I couldn't spend time out of my house in the evenings several times a week.

It absolutely can but you all need to be flexible. I have DD and my friend comes along to things I’m sure bore her eg a farm. Equally, I go to things that I have no interest in for her - most recently The Downton Abbey film (not even seen the series). It’s about caring enough to make compromises and putting effort in each side.

But for 18 years, their kids are going to be their first priority this doesn't preclude having friends, I have lots of friends, I don't need to prioritize my children at all time, indeed, I would find it hard to do so as they are usually out these days with their own friends (mid-teens)!

I have a 3yo, a 5yo and expecting a third soon and I’m literally baffled by this question. My important friendships are all basically unscathed whether they have kids or not. I’m in London so most of my close female friends are childfree/ yet to start families despite us being late thirties. I just leave kids with dh to go and meet them. Still have evenings out, still the occasional night away, still call or text when I know they’re struggling or have big stuff on.

Literally the only time I was massively different was the first 5/6 months after having a new baby. I’d still go out but would have to leave earlier and my conversation was probably pretty crap given how tired I was. Good friends never seemed to mind and after a few months I was back to my old safe pretty much.

It’s nice if they ask after the kids or pop in to see them sometimes but I’m mostly happy to keep social stuff separate and hang out with other parents if it’s kid focused stuff. I would never expect my child free friends come to soft play just to see me.

What have your friend actually done though OP? Do you suggest things, or do you leave it to them? Do you suggest going out for dinner and the theatre, and they then say no? Have they said or done anything to indicate they don't want to do something other than soft play? Who arranges the meet ups? I'm just wondering if there's a communication issue here - are you on a low income, perhaps they're hesitant to suggest things you can't afford

The person who probably counts as my best friend right now... I don't think we'd be friends at all if she had kids. It's me who is intolerant, but I think she'd have a lot of issues that would make me unhappy to observe.

I am far from a perfect parent & have drifted apart from people in past due to our different parenting styles. I think I find parenting more divisive than unifying.

I have 6 close friends. 1, from school doesn't have children. We meet, minus kids, have lunch, dinner, go to a spa. Childless. My having children, and/or her not, has never been a factor.

I simply, literally do not know what you mean!

My youngest is six and I’d say in the last year I’m back to seeing my friends as much as previously. Never was a night club type anyway or much for very late nights but I’m back at pub nights and accepting theatre and cinema invites.
Thank fuck my friends didn’t all just forget about me when the kids were too little to leave

I’m not the one forgetting, so right back at you.

I'm pretty much the only one of my friends to have a baby, and at the moment my issue is that they don't want to go out in the evening! A weekend evening works brilliantly for me - DH looks after DS, I still get to spend all day with him - but all of my trendy mid-30s London friends have gone hygge and are embracing clean living and early nights (wtf?!). They are all obsessed with fucking brunch, which is the worst option for me because if I go to London for brunch I am out for almost all of DS's waking hours and I work full time so I don't like doing that. They are also all on marathon training schedules. I despair.

In all seriousness, it is tough and I don't blame you for finding it hard and also upsetting. I do think the distance you mention probably makes a big difference.

YABU
Of course they can. My 2 best friends don’t have children. One by choice and the other sadly not by choice. I have teenage and younger dc and knew both of them beholds I had dc. We’ve genuinely stayed very close. We sometimes meet up with dc but mostly without them.