To wonder if friendships between parents and non-parents can ever really work?

[moonwashigh]

I’m not being goady, or trying to knock anybody, either people with children or people without. I don’t have children (that’s not a choice) and because of the age I am (late thirties) pretty much everyone in my friendship circle has had a baby within the last five years, most are now on their second.

Obviously, I understand and expect that the children come first and I’m not saying it should be different. But being honest about how things are, it means that obviously nights out don’t happen and that’s fair enough. That means seeing them during the day and the children are of course there. This wasn’t so bad when they were babies but now the stages mean you can’t have any sort of conversation - again, that’s no ones fault, it’s just how it is.

To be totally honest on here in a way I wouldn’t be in RL, I don’t really want to be spending my free time in soft play, farms and child friendly cafes but then this obviously means if I do elicit this choice I don’t see my friends as I fully understand that this is how it has to be.

It also means the onus is on me to see them rather than anyone travelling to see me. I get this - driving three hours with kids in tow is a nightmare - but obviously then I am constantly doing the travel with the time and money this takes up and that also feels a bit unfair.

So is the disparity just too great or can it ever really work? To me, it feels the only way it can work is if I accept my lot in life is to travel, sit and dote on other people’s children and then travel home again ...

My parents' best best friends in the entire world from uni / first job days ie 45 years ago are both childless so it obviously works for them!

This is always a difficult one. I think if your friends are constantly spending time with you and their kids then they are being selfish - if they are single parents then it's a whole new story.

If they have the support there I do think they should try and spend time with you alone doing fun adult things. I do this a lot with my friends, in fact I don't think I've ever expected my childless friends to come spend time with me while my kid is there, it just ruins any and all conversation.

eh I'm not great at friendships/keeping in touch anyway but i personally have found the pregnancy and small baby stage has quite overtaken eeeeeverything and friendships with child free friends have fallen out of focus/been replaced by mum friends. it's probably not terminal but my chat is all babies and their chat is all not babies it's not them it's me i've changed...

2 of my best friends don't have children and we managed to stay friends (mine are older now but still managed to keep the friendship going when they were younger) I was still able to go out by myself when my kids were young

It’s a big ask though.

For the most part, drinking wine during the week is a bit of a no-no whether they work or not - I do. So then you’re encroaching on weekends which are sacred family time. Once in a blue moon yes, every weekend, no. I wouldn’t expect this even if I asked!

There's lots of reasons I didn't go away a lot to see friends when my children were little but it doesn't have to be "away" as ophas local friends. It can be coffee for an hour.
we were completely knackered and used to take it in turns to nap on Sat/Sun! I wouldn't have had the energy for a career and socializing every weekend with two littlies which is fine, but it is a choice to nap not go out for a coffee with B for an hour after the last 5 meet ups were at soft play. I did forget the useless husbands altho in my experience with friends, most of them cope when they're made to

Would it not be okay to have friend meet ups mostly in evening time OP? If your friend came to you after her kids were in bed you guys could have adult wine time (fri, sat if you don't want to mid week drink). Depending on their ages of course. If friend has a partner I don't see why your friend can't come to you at 6pm and leave her partner to put the kids to bed, I do that all the time with DH.

I don't know.. it sounds like she's just not a very good friend to me. Sure, weekends are usually family time, but that doesn't have to be the case every weekend for every hour of the day.

I can completely see where you are coming from - friedships evolve and change. You are living through that change but it feels like its detrimental to you - the way things are in our society, you are the one that has to bend and adapt and it feels unfair that on top of everything else you are the one that has to do that again...
I think friendships can continue between those that have children and those that don't but they will fundamentally be changed.
But for your sanity I think you would be well to downplay those friendships (not drop or remove just downgrade them for a while) so you have the space to make some new ones that are an easier fit for now. I am in a craft group and am quite enjoying the company of older ladies who are by no means old, but their families are grown up or have left home but are wanting to have some fun, are at a loose end at the weekends and want to expand their social life again. I am 'the boring one' that usually can't join in because of my family commitments but I love hearing about their fun weekends...
As always there is a balance between keeping contact with old friends but also ensuring your needs are also being met.

The blunt truth is I don’t want someone else’s child to be involved in, but ideally I’d like to experience having and parenting my own. That’s obviously far more honest than I’d ever be in real life, but if it isn’t to be it isn’t to be.

I think this is key, OP. I was happily childfree until I was two months short of 40 I mean, I was not ever planning to have children, and didn't see them in my future, and as some of my friends were having their children in their early and mid-20s, that was a lot of time as the childfree friend and while I absolutely remember those feelings of boredom and isolation when some of my closest friends had children, it probably made a difference that having a child was not something I wanted then.

I certainly never adopted a crazy aunt role or showed any particular interest in my friends' children in themselves or went to a soft play place (the horror!). Lots of these were friendships at a distance as well, as we've moved around a lot. I didn't see it as my importance being downgraded though -- I saw it as my friends being temporarily preoccupied with something I had very little interest in. It probably also helped that my friends had children at lots of different stages, so now that I'm 47 with a seven year old, I have friends with children ranging from toddlerhood to 30somethings, and I also have voluntarily and involuntarily childless friends who have other things that limit our interaction, like caring for a relative with dementia.

I have always prioritised my friendships, and they are very important to me. I never made a battalion of 'mummy friends' and I neither expect my friends to be more than slightly interested in my child nor to have to be hugely invested in their children -- I say don't panic, see your friends as temporarily occupied with something else, and treat yourself and your feelings about having or not having a child as a priority, OP.

Nearly all my friends have children - I am childless. Do I see them less often - yes. Does it affect the quality of our friendship - no.

My friends don't expect me to attend their children's birthday parties - unless it rolls over into the evening. All my friends also work and add in the kids' activities on weekends snatching coffee is harder than actually setting time for an evening together. It's easier for me to go round theirs for an evening of take-away and drinks than them trying to find a babysitter (or BBQ in summer where everyone is welcome - the kids all play together, the adults catch up). But that doesn't mean nights out don't happen. They do.

My friends still have time to ask how I am and phone regularly for a catch-up. But I am also lucky to have a wide circle of friends (with children and without) so nights out for me are not limited. I tend to see childless friends mid-week in London. Weekends - see friends with kids (or a whole weekend visiting those not living near London anymore).

It's hard work maintaining friendship - but not impossible. Both sides need to put the effort in. Last night, for example, I had dinner with 2 friends who both have 6-week old babies plus one childless friend. 3 of us travelled around 1.5/2 hours by public transport to one friend's house. A jolly evening was had by all albeit sober for the new parents.

If you're friends kids are small then the effort will be more on your side - as they get older it gets easier.

Well of course, but they don’t want to.

That’s the brutal truth! For most, they are juggling PT work with new-mum friends, toddler groups, spending time with own families, husbands and of course being a parent.

The truth is, you’re a long way down the list of priorities and that’s the way it has to be - I get that. As someone has said, your 30s end up being lonely as a result! So I’m glad it isn’t just me!

Maybe you need to try and make friends for whom friendship is a priority?

I have a child, and friends with and without children.
The only time I could imagine the friendships suffering is if having a child turns you into a mummy bore, which does often seem to happen.

Easier said than done, jenny, believe me.

Again, being brutal about it and in no way trying to be offensive, for most people, friends are not the priority.

For most people their children are the priority and grandchildren as an extension of this if they have them. Then partner, if they have one. Then their own family - their own parents, siblings and grandparents if they have them. Then friends. And often there’s a pecking order with friendships with those with the most longevity given priority over newer friendships.

Now I know there are NUMEROUS exceptions to the above, I know plenty of people will say they are NC with their mum and don’t actually like their own partner much but as a rule of thumb, that’s how it goes.

I think from most of your posts you are describing toddlers/pre school children. I didn't sleep through the night until youngest started school, my ability to go out has greatly increased now they are 7+ Though I still drink a lot less and would be happier going to the movies or for a meal than often than to a pub.
Obviously you won't want to share it with every friend, but have you talked about your own sadness (as I think you have said) about not having children? I think you would find it helpful to share with at least one friend and I suspect they might involve their dc less when they meet you if they knew.
As a parent it is a lovely thing to have a friend who you think cares for your dc and I only have one or two like that.

I am sad about not having children, but this is my issue and avoiding children altogether isn’t the answer. Besides, it isn’t that I find being around their children hard for this reason. As I indicated above, the truth is I would like to parent my children, not cheerlead other people’s.

I understand what you're saying, I feel the same about friends who are having young babies now, ours are primary school aged so our stages of life feel quite incompatible in many ways, I forget how dominating younger children are "she has to nap, just need to change a nappy, dinner time!" It's so inflexible. But this tricky stage is temporary, you should find it gets easier as the kids get more independent, it'll be tough if you have the kind of friends who won't leave kids with DHs or babysitters though, that was never me!

I know it is not easy to find good friends, but maybe then you need to be looking at women without kids. One tenth of women do not have kids.

My best friend has kids, we don't. Seems to work fine still

We've curtailed some of our activities and the frequency, but still see each other often and still go away climbing and go on holidays together

Well yes jenny but there aren’t groups purely for women without kids

Plus, even if they don’t have children they will probably have partners, parents, other friends.

No there are not groups purely for women without kids, but groups such as walking groups are unlikely to be full of mums with toddlers.

Are you actually asking them to come out for dinner, without kids, for example? Or are you assuming they're can't, need family time at weekends etc?

They probably think you are having late, fun nights and can only do daytime coffee with boring old them, if that's all you're suggesting. Too many assumptions on both sides can damage a friendship more than making different decisions. Stop agreeing to farm visits and suggest something else.

I don't think having kids is any different than other things that dominate your free time for a period, that friends work round. Periods of serious illness, junior doctor years and night shifts... baby years isn't that different. Unless you perfectly match up, most people have accommodated friends who had babies years before them or people at different stages.

Yes, although it’s also my own personal idea of hell.

I appreciate what you are saying jenny but the sad fact is that as a lone woman in my late thirties, making new friends is a long and slow process. For the most part, I’ve found friendships through work - I’m actually quite a happy and friendly person which I concede won’t have come over on this thread but then this is a thread I’m using to be honest in a way I can’t in RL.

My late father was a member of a walking group. He loved it. For me, it would be hell on earth. I find going for a walk so dull and so pointless and so yawn inducing at the best of times: doing it on a Sunday morning is not for me!

I doubt you're going to find a friend who only has the one friend and that's you and nobody else important in their lives OP. Is that really what you want?

But there are groups for women; hobby groups, activity groups etc, I'm certain you could find some if you tried! Your expectations might be a problem though. Being able to find someone that you like and who likes you, and who puts you first above all else? That's not so likely. But finding some friends who have other friends but still like you enough to put you high on the priority list for solid friend time? That's totally possible. Even from parent friends.

I'm childless and not that child friendly. One of my closest friends is a single parent with little help. Yes I often see her at child based activities but she is my friend and if that's what I have to do to see her that's fine.

It helps that her child is very well behaved and well mannered so its never a chore and I learn a lot from her