Brexit postponed

[MarianaMoatedGrange]

AIBU to worry that the (almost certain) delay in Brexit will give rise to civil unrest?

I find the "let's just get Brexit done" narrative quite shocking tbh. Are people really so blindly committed to leaving the EU that they want to do it right now at any cost? Or are they merely so ignorant of the potential consequences of getting it wrong that they fall prey to these simplistic soundbites?

I was a passionate remainer in the referendum, but I accept that we lost and that we therefore need to leave. However, the idea that we should just exit as soon as possible, without proper parliamentary scrutiny of the deal, or worse, without a deal at all, is just plain stupid. Whatever people were voting for in 2016, I genuinely don't think it was for a return to violence in Northern Ireland or for decades of economic misery. If we're going to leave, let's at least do it in the least damaging way possible - surely, we can all agree on that?!

I genuinely don't understand how applying the same parliamentary scrutiny that we would apply to any other significant piece of legislation can possibly be considered to be undemocratic. That's how our democracy works. That said, I am also unable to comprehend why people feel that a second referendum, now that we know much more about what Brexit might look like, would be anti-democratic. How can it be a betrayal of the will of the people to ask them to clarify what they actually want?

Yes- I really don’t know what Leavers expect to happen on 1st November.

Yes- I really don’t know what Leavers expect to happen on 1st November

Me neither, there's a perverse part of me that just wants us to crash out so that I can watch what happens and how they react - I don't really but it would be good if we could play out all the possible outcomes and THEN choose.

Those are your rights that stop us becoming like the US, ten days holiday et al

Dp works for an American company.

The 10 days holiday I have seen bandied about and I one poster vetoed a job because of thinking the US have only 10 days holiday.

Dps company have the 10 days holiday, then they have personal days and sick days.

Added up they definitely get more days off.

I think there is another side to saying British workers are the most idle in the world and that working rights are the Japanese knotweed clogging up the arteries of business

I come from an area that has largely been taken over by a certain group from the EU.

A lot leave children back home with gps and come to work on the UK.

They can live in shared accommodation very cheaply because they don’t have a family to house. They don’t have childcare and can work odd hours.

They also can work for less money because they are not housing or providing for their families

OTOH someone born here who has a spouse and children has to house those children and look after them which all costs money.

Benefits kick in and suddenly you are having to weigh up going to do a particular job with how much extra you will earn and if the job ends how many weeks you will have to live with nothing coming in before benefits kick in or you get another job.

It isn’t as simple as saying that British workers are idle.

If other countries had similar benefits schemes do you think that some of these hard working nations would still look as hard working?

To some degree the benefits system we have is holding people back.
That safety net is more like fish net trapping people in poverty.

I am from an immigrant family and I will say growing up we didn’t live like British people.

My parents worked 7 days per week and did the grottiest jobs. We lived with extended family. GPS, aunties, uncles and their wives/husbands (8 adults and 2 children) in a 2 bed 1 box room council house that had a single cold tap an outside toilet and single skin walls which the grout was falling out of so you could see outside through the brick work

Our neighbours were also immigrant families and lived similar lives

No British family lived like us.

The problem is that I think a lot (not all, obviously) of Leavers are now in a position where they are thinking, if not actually saying, that they don’t care what happens so long as it pisses off the Remainers.

Alexa I couldn't agree more.
As a remainer I could accept that we may leave. But to leave on the terms that this lying man child proposes is not what was claimed to be the purpose of leave in the referendum. I remember the rhetoric, £350m for the NHS - lie. Easiest trade deal ever - lie. They (EU) need us more than we need them - lie. Bonfire of red tape for business (aka working rights) - true.
The tories could not muster a strong argument for remain for fear of exposing their ideological commitment to austerity for the lie it was. I fully understand why some voters felt so disenfranchised and left behind, particularly those in communities where manufacturing was decimated by a previous tory government (see a theme here). But none of their woes were inflicted by the EU. They were inflicted by their own government using the EU as a scapegoat.
Leaving the EU was not even on most people's agenda until Cameron realised that the tory party was haemorrhaging support to the hate inducing UKIP.
Those screaming to get this deal through at any cost need to give their fucking heads a wobble and wake the fuck up to what this government proposes. It is a back door to a no-deal at the end of next year. Johnson does not want alignment withe the EU, he does not want a trade deal with the EU. Because any standardisation of terms in bot workers rights, consumer rights and environmental rights will not allow them to trade with Trump. And that, fellas, is the reason for Brexit.

I also think there are Leavers out there who actually have changed their mind but won't admit it because of a perverse idea they lose face. I would admire them TBH because they were sold lies and saying now it's not what they thought it would be is brave

Folk chuntering about civil unrest can bore off. Round where I live it's a massive effort for the pensionable Brexit majority to walk from their cars to Wetherspoons.

Agree unknown. The BBC interviewed some Leavers from Bolton yesterday. One guy said he wants to Leave because manufacturing will come back to Britain and we will be able protect our own workers if we leave.
Deluded

Dps company have the 10 days holiday, then they have personal days and sick days
Since when did a sick day become leave. So he takes sick to go on holiday? Bizarre comment.
In fact, your whole post is bizarre. Why should families live like your family lived? I mean what the actual hell are you suggesting.
If the safety net of benefits is keeping people in poverty, legislate for skanky corporations like Amazon, Google, Starbucks etc to pay their taxes and pay their employees a decent wage.
All those companies who use clever loopholes to avoid tax expect a healthy, educated workforce along with a transport infrastructure and wifi infrastructure. But they don't want to pay for it.
I'm from an immigrant family as well. And I grew up in poverty with an alcoholic father who pissed everything he earned.
But I sure as hell have worked hard and have been lucky to drag myself out of that life. And I will fight tooth and nail to not allow my kids and their kids to be dragged back down in this race to the bottom to appease Trump, Johnson and JRM.

Me neither, there's a perverse part of me that just wants us to crash out so that I can watch what happens and how they react - I don't really but it would be good if we could play out all the possible outcomes and THEN choose.

Yes, I sometimes feel like that too - like saying, "fine, have what you fucking voted for and then see if you like it". The reality is that they would find a way of blaming it all on the remain voters and/or the EU anyway. If only the remainers had believed in Brexit a bit more, if only the EU hadn't been intent on punishing us, if only Boris had been allowed to get on with it...

Some people will never take responsibility for their decisions, I'm afraid. And anyway, crashing out would be disastrous for all of us, including lots of innocent remainers.

Leavers voted to leave the EU. With or without a deal.

MPs voted for leaving but only with a deal.

Mps have now got a deal.

Whether they like it or not. It might not be the right deal but the MPs who voted that there should be a deal before we leave didn’t specify they wanted a good deal.

I think a be careful of what you wish for.

Rousette I know, you couldn't make this shit up could you.
Fucking useful idiots.
And I agree with another poster who thinks that some leavers would likely vote remain now but are publicly too embarrassed to admit it.
I think in five years time finding someone who admitted to voting leave if this deal goes through will be rarer than finding hens teeth.
The irony is, I would have so much respect for them if they did so. Like I said above, I get why some thought it would be a good idea, but they were duped and lied to with the opposition (Cameron and Osborn) unable to refute those lies because it would have exposed their ideological austerity scam and their assault on the British people.
I also don't understand why people would trust the adulterer de Pfeffle Johnson. He is a proven liar - he disgraces the office he holds.

Leavers voted to leave the EU. With or without a deal
Leavers voted for

I also think there are Leavers out there who actually have changed their mind but won't admit it because of a perverse idea they lose face. I would admire them TBH because they were sold lies and saying now it's not what they thought it would be is brave

Do you know how patronising that sounds?

“Do you know how patronising that sounds?“

Do you think it might be true- patronising or not?

Bertrand - no

unknown I agree. And I said that there are people out there who would change their minds but not admit to it for fear of losing face.

Little If we want to be forever divided, call it patronising if you will. I, personally, want the country to come together. If someone changed their mind I wouldn't ostracise them for having voted leave in the first place, I would think 'well done' for changing your mind.

There's some very touchy people on MN today.

Since when did a sick day become leave

We are talking about the US. Not the UK.

I am very sorry theunknownknown that your father pissed away the family money.

In my family every evening what ever some one had earned that day was put into a pot and the following day the money for food or bills was taken out of it and the rest banked.

Till we could move onto our own home.

What I was trying to get at is without the benefits system you have to work and do anything you can to earn money to live.

There are probably thousands of families who live like we did packed in to a tiny house or flat and in a few years they will emerge the wealthier for it.

It is basic maths.

Paying one lot of rent between 8 adults and all working 7 days per week will get you out of poverty quicker than renting 4 x 1 bed flats and paying for 4 lots of electric bills and 4 lots of council tax bills.

theunknownknown

The leavers I know didn’t listen to any of the rhetoric. They knew they were voting leave as soon as the referendum was announced.

So saying they they were told lies isnt true.

They didn’t listen to any of what was being sold to them by the leave campaign and quite a few listened to Project Fear from the Rain campaign and it convinced them to vote Leave

“ Bertrand - no”

So not one single leaver has changed their mind?

What I was trying to get at is without the benefits system you have to work and do anything you can to earn money to live
Then a government has a duty to make sure that there is work for it's people and that that work is secure and pays enough to support their families.
Not something a Tory government is ever likely to do.

So saying they they were told lies isnt true
Two different things - so what if they knew they wanted to leave? They were still told lies. The whole leave campaign was based on lies.

I think not losing face is a huge part of it, and I also think ‘not losing face’ goes hand in hand with the Rebuild the Empire crew, where Britain never backs down, never loses. The reality is, whether or not it even happens, Brexit has made us look like a bunch of fucking idiots, and I don’t believe anyone thinks differently, even the most staunch leave voters.

Oliversmumsarmy
I cannot believe that you seem to be advocating families living in squalor as a serious proposition?
I am genuinely lost for words.
And that they will emerge from it wealthy????