To think some posters will always say the school / teacher is not being unreasonable

[andineverwill]

It really does feel you can’t criticise schools / teachers on here.

Not really sure what you’re expecting from this thread? Have you had a bad experience with a teacher?

Anyway I’ve been in education for five years. I’ve met some absolute nutters along the way but I’m struggling to think of anyone who didn’t ‘like kids’. I’ve met power trippers, but no one who didn’t want the best for their students. Certainly none who would LIE.

What are you basing your opinion on? The days of the surly, egocentric teacher are largely over so if that is who you’re thinking of you’re about 20 years too late.

You don't think it's possible to criticise teachers?

Have you opened a newspaper, read mn or talked to other parents on the playground?

All we get is criticism. Everything that is wrong with society is our fault. Obesity is not enough sport at school. People getting into unmanageable debt is schools not teaching kids about financial planning, budgeting and how APR works.

Everyone thinks they could do our job, because they were once a kid, and now have a kid.

Decisions made to enforce discipline receive parental complaints because they only want the other children disciplined, not their own.

Parents apply to schools and kick off about rules they think are unfair - uniform, toilet breaks, amount of homework.

And then, regularly, SLT come to scrutinise our books and observe our lessons, not to mention Ofsted.

We are under attack all the time. That is honestly how some of us feel. So when I see a thread on mn from a parent complaining about a teacher, I come to it with all that baggage.

Occasionally I agree with the poster, because of course you can get bad teachers, or good ones who make a bad judgement or a mistake.

But mostly I read them and know that, at times, I or one of my colleagues have been on the other side of that story and have a very different version of events.

That, and the fact that complaints are never seen as something to address calmly with the class teacher but instead are a reason to strop up to school to give both barrels, with a very skewed sense of what good parenting involves.

I think many parents of kids with sn see teachers as benign, caring and having their child’s best interests at heart.

Then their child goes to school and parents’ views change, due to bitter experience.

There is a primary near us (rated ofsted good) which has a one way mirror into the classroom from a secure reception area for all the infant classrooms. Parents are welcome to come any time to observe the class - the kids can’t a see they are being observed.

The head is apparently very pro gaining parents’ trust and the teaching staff sound very passionate.

I have mixed feelings about my own dds being so observable by other parents but I can see why some would like this.

Can you honestly not see how that post is a huge part of the problem, forest?

I can assure you cathy I would never “strop up to school with both barrels” and I haven’t said anything that implies I would.

I’m not talking about you, so why the defensiveness? Serious question.

I wonder if there needs to be a designated thread like the Stately Homes one for people who have had negative experiences from their schools or particular teachers. Somewhere we can talk about it without being expected to apologise for "bashing" to posters that had nothing to do with the situations.

That might be quite therapeutic for some, yes. Recently, there was a thread started about adults who had been horrific to ‘you’ as a child and almost all were about teachers and no one claimed it to be teacher bashing and the thread was not hijacked.

Compare this to the one in the summer, where teachers wanted their own thread in their own area to talk about parents who had been horrific to them and it was constantly hijacked by parents with an axe to grind.

That’s the sad difference about this site.

ChilledBee, you have been a poster on pretty much every thread about schools, often saying really inflammatory things about teachers. Your update on here really does explain it and I am so sorry if you experienced that. As an SLT member, you are better placed than any of us ‘teachers’ to sort things like that out. It generally sounds as if it all descended into chaos really. Thankfully, the majority of schools are not like that and you may well come to see that, when your own children start school and you ‘go to the other side’ so to speak. Whipping up hatred for all teachers, when on your maternity leave, is not helping improve the general relationship between parents and teachers on this site. I am fully expecting a catty response to this post from you but at least I know why, now.

In answer to the OP’s main ‘point’, no where on this site do people defend teachers to the hilt at all times. Those same teacher posters who might say one day, to advise against storming into the school, will on another thread, give helpful advice on exactly how to word and carry out their complaint. Posters like you don’t seem to take in those threads and continue to have your viewpoint.

Personally, I would prefer it if most parents directly contacted the school, reasonably, and sorted out their issue, rather than going to Mumsnet or social media in the first place.

I think many parents of kids with sn see teachers as benign, caring and having their child’s best interests at heart.

Then their child goes to school and parents’ views change, due to bitter experience.

Most teachers do have all children's best interests at heart. Teachers are struggling to meet all the needs of the children they have in one classroom. This doesn't mean they don't care, often we really are trying our best. I think parents forget that we have 30+ children in a room. Often at least 2 students with and ECHP. Quite often the ECHPs are polar opposites for the 2 children. Funding cuts mean there is no longer LSA support, instead the onus is on the teacher to meet the pupils needs. Teachers agree with parents that the system is broken. There isn't enough SEN provision, especially for students who need a smaller and quieter environment. Anecdotally SEN diagnoses are rising and funding is falling. Its the perfect storm.

I can imagine sending your child to an environment you know isn't suitable must be heartbreaking. It's not enjoyable for teachers who know they can't meet the needs of the pupils they teach either. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place because there is no alternative provision for these students anymore.

Teachermaths a lot of the time the adjustments needed to allow a child to thrive are tiny. I do sympathise with teachers in the current system, but I think there is a tendency just to throw hands up and say it can’t be done

And I should say I’ve also taught though not in a primary school

Onceuponatimethen

Sometimes they are tiny. For example I had a class last year with 3 students who needed yellow, blue and pink copies of the worksheet. Now to a parent this seems tiny. To a staff member who has to remember this, chase down the different coloured paper (we don't have resources to keep in the department) and remember to photocopy every single sheet /textbook it soon adds 15 minutes to every day. I accept this is part of my role, I accept this is what the EHCP says, I accept I am in the wrong for not doing it. I also accept some mornings I simply forgot or didn't have time.

Some adjustments are huge and very hard to implement particularly in secondary school. We are seeing an increasingly large number of students who have "time out cards" or "need a quiet place to work in outside the classroom". Time out cards become a pass for students to wait on corridors (often disturbing other lessons) for as long as they like because "my EHCP says I'm allowed this miss". There is nowhere in school where we have a quiet room for students to work that isn't the classroom. We don't have the funding to staff such a room, there are no spare humans in the building. I think parents generally have no idea of the cuts to education.

Sadly, this does happen, Onceuponatimethen, I know. I have worked with some absolutely awful and lazy teachers. Annoyingly, they have been mostly SLT but on the flip side, they are rarely in the classroom and they are very few and far between on the whole thankfully. Those complaints and issue are absolutely worth raising in the correct manner and I welcome them.

As a new parent to reception, I have been saddened at how the littlest gripe is discussed at length on class Whats App groups and Facebook etc. Little things that could easily be explained such as ‘that parents evening was pointless and too short and how dare they not know more about XXX’, when it was really just a meet and great for new parents and there will be two more parents evenings throughout the year to discuss progress and this was stated in a letter parent has forgotten about and ‘XXX’ told me he didn’t wear his wellies to forest school so what’s the point in me providing them? How incompetent are they!’ when there is a photo of XXX wearing said wellies at forest school on the portal etc.

These gripes are not for social media and forums like Mumsnet and is undermining the situations when a complaint really is valid and I can see why teachers are being ground down by it all.

Sometimes they are tiny. For example I had a class last year with 3 students who needed yellow, blue and pink copies of the worksheet. Now to a parent this seems tiny. To a staff member who has to remember this, chase down the different coloured paper (we don't have resources to keep in the department) and remember to photocopy every single sheet /textbook it soon adds 15 minutes to every day. I accept this is part of my role, I accept this is what the EHCP says, I accept I am in the wrong for not doing it. I also accept some mornings I simply forgot or didn't have time.

And then there are the students who need it in larger print. The students who need the PowerPoint in advance. The students who need a checklist. The students who need the instructions in their own language. The students who need pictures.

It doesn’t just add up. It makes planning your lessons and keeping up with that planning virtually impossible, and all because of “tiny” adjustments.

seaweedandmarchingbands

Hear hear.

Planning lessons takes ages as it is. Particularly Maths where we plan bespoke based on yesterday's misconceptions etc. Unlike other subjects who work their way through a bank of pre planned stuff.

Unlike other subjects who work their way through a bank of pre planned stuff.

Miaow!

Unlike other subjects who work their way through a bank of pre planned stuff

So only maths teachers plan bespoke on yesterday’s misconceptions? The rest of us just use pre-planned stuff and never bother thinking about lessons in context of whole schemes of learning which are based on understanding X before moving on to Y. No prior learning needed. No differentiation whatsoever.

Isn’t the profession struggling enough without us turning on each other? You are very wrong about the work your colleagues are doing.

Unlike other subjects who work their way through a bank of pre planned stuff.

Definitely a little tongue in cheek and comes from a week of being challenged by SLT as to why we don't do this. Apologies. (Though history and geography where I teach definitely do this).

Unlike other subjects who work their way through a bank of pre planned stuff.

I mostly do have banks of pre-planned stuff, but very often there are issues with it. I remember when my school insisted all materials be re-done in particular colours and fonts, and - not kidding - each line be rewritten in a different colour.

seaweedandmarchingbands it's interesting how you want the plan details, but have ignored the incident where the teacher needn't have done what she did as she wasn't teaching that day.

But here's what happened.
The Head contacted me and said she felt DS3 needed to eat a snack at morning break. She believed his behaviour after break was blood sugar related. (I don't, I think it's the short transitions as he doesn't deal with them well).

(Something had happened during the previous school year (Yr1) and DS3 was adamant he was not allowed a snack.)

Head said he could bring in sweets, DS3 still wasn't entertaining the idea. I said I could bring him up a chocolate milk carton, he was into this idea but he didn't want anyone to know and it had to be a secret. Head assured him, said he would be brought to the office area we were in, I suggested the adults and DS3 could say it was his medicine time. Head agreed.

1st day, all done to plan. Jubilant email as he had been calm after break.

Day 2, I had a meeting with SENCo first thing, she had the plan written up, needed a couple of minor amendments. Said there was no TA in his class that morning so she (SENCo) was taking DS3 for his snack. I reiterated how it must be a secret and discretion was needed. SENCo confirmed teacher was also aware.

I picked DS3 asked to sign document. on the way home DS3 said the "secret was destroyed". He'd gone with a classmate to have his medicine and she'd stayed and seen everything.

I queried with school and was told yes that happened, classmate was supposed to come straight back, not stay. The SENCo says she was on the phone.

You'll probably say the teacher made a judgement call and his classmate should have followed the instruction (they are 6, Yr2). I say when DS3 is being disruptive they always find another adult to remove him, and she's decided DS3's need for privacy is low priority.

The SENCo tried to push it back on me, saying was I ok with him going to the office alone? I pointed out the arrangements were down to the school, I hadn't asked for him to be accompanied and I wasn't taking the responsibility from them on this one.

A huge problem is after a really bad Yr1, there's no adults DS3 feels safe around, he hated being "tricked". I also resent persuading him into something only for them not to follow it. I would never ask for him to have milkshake and sweets during the school day. He's isolated enough socially without his classmates knowing he's getting treats.

Which is the same issue with the teacher getting involved when she needn't have. He felt she was trying to trick him. This was the day after we'd had a meeting she was in and had discussed DS3 and his lack of any bond with any adults in the school.

It's all led to a 1.5 day exclusion for persistent disruptive behaviour, as he's constantly trying to get out of the classroom. Though to be fair we've pushed that, partly so we have concrete evidence they aren't coping with him, rather than writing it up as mum being fussy and anxious!

And yes I get that teachers are human, they make mistakes. But I had to ask what happened, they weren't honest about it. To me that's trying to take advantage of DS3's communication disorder, in the hope he won't tell me.

(He has ASD, diagnosed during nursery, just turned 4.)

DobbinsVeil

I found that difficult to follow, sorry. Can you summarise?

DobbinsVeil

A friend of mine is having desperate issues with some teachers at her son’s school ignoring his plan to the extent of endangering his health. Every time she goes in to discuss she is met with “oh we need more training from the hospital”.

She is now in the process of having to look at moving schools. As she says if teachers can’t follow a basic non-medical course of action, how can she trust them to (a) keep her child safe and (b) teach him!

DobbinsVeil

Sorry, that was rude. Let me. Your son needed his break time snack to be a secret (why?). What did the teacher do?

Head put together a plan based k. Their assessment of what was causing behaviour after break
Key part of plan for the pupil was disregarded on day 2
Parent had to ask school I'd what child reported was true
It was true
Pupil no longer trusts teacher
Pupil becomes more disruptive
Pupil gets fixed term exclusion

YANBU.

I'm one of the posters who tends to side with the parent/child. My own experiences of school were dreadful, and I'm an advocate of alternative education and think the levels of petty authoritarianism in (most) schools are awful. I also worked in schools for a number of years. I met many very good, caring teachers, and a few who were quite the opposite.

I can understand people disagreeing with me on how schools should be run. What really bothers me, however, is when an OP sets out a scenario in which the teacher is clearly being unreasonable, and the usual suspects chime in with 'your child must be lying', 'all children lie about why they're in trouble' and so on. It's as if they can't admit that bad teachers exist. Yes, some children lie. Some people lie, but we don't see every other thread beset with accusations that someone in the scenario described must be lying about what they say happened to them. There's an automatic assumption of bad faith where children and young people are concerned which would be unacceptable in any other context.

I still don’t understand. What did the teacher actually do?

Dobbins that sounds like an unfortunate concatenation of events rather than ‘teachers not respecting your DS’s privacy’.

No TA in the class and your DS with SEN needs to go to the office. Teacher doesn’t want child with SEN to go on their own so sends with classmate. Child is told to come straight back but doesn’t. SENCo who knows the drill is otherwise engaged. DS is given chocolate milk while other child is present. No one has the presence of mind to explain to the other child it contains his medicine.

I can see you’re at the end of your tether but honestly, let that one go. No one acted maliciously and on any other day it would have worked out fine.