AIBU to be really pissed off with EU countries?

[FloatingObject]

This isn;t a general Brexit debate, this is about the rights of foreign nationals NOT being reciprocated as it was claimed they would be.

You know it's serious when the Guardian finally bites the bullet and publishes what it doesn't want to publish. For reference: www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/14/britons-in-europe-face-citizens-rights-lottery-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

I cannot believe that for settled status (which is free to apply for via an app) all you have to do is show proof of address and that you're not a criminal.

Meanwhile, here in France (for example), they're not taking applications, it'll cost over 200 quid, all by old-school paper, involving proof of income, etc etc.

I love this country (France), I'm not a huge earner but higher than average, I pay high taxes, I volunteer. I feel as if the countries of the EU (with the exception of Ireland, see article) are completely using us as pawns. I get that Brexit is a complete fucking mess that nobody wants. But that's not our fault. We're people who have made commitments to our host countries. We should be treated the same way EU nationals in the UK are being treated. I have a French friend in the UK who doesn't even give a crap about Brexit, she applied for her settled status and has moved on, her big thing is the climate change stuff. This isn't even on her radar. If the reverse was happening there'd be complete fucking outrage in the UK, and cries of "this is just despicable, these are peoples LIVES!!!!"

Sorry for the rant, but I just think although obviously given my situation (and also my politics) I am anti Brexit, I think this is a really poor show from EU countries, and I think the EU could have come up with a collective solution for British nationals already living in the EU, that would apply across the board. It's not their problem, but neither is it ours. /rant over

"he cannot get dual citizenship as the Dutch don't allow it"

He could get Dutch citizenship if he gave up British citizenship
A Dutch citizen who was born Dutch couldn't have dual citizenship either

I doubt if Uk expats in any country will be given more rights than native-born

This is the problem:
Within the EU, there are standard rights as an EU citizen
Over 1 million Brits made important life decisions assuming they would always have these rights

• but after Brexit we won't

Once we become a 3rd country, the EU has no power to order its then 27 members to give special rights to UK citizens, over and above those of other 3rd country citizens

In fact, most countries are giving us some extra rights, but these won't be equal to those of an EU ciitizen

Each country will have its own requirements for 3rd country citizens
Some of the E27 have fingerprinting; some don't

Also, it's a matter of what each country can handle - I shudder to think of the mess the Home Office could make, trying to fingerprint 3 million people in a relatively short space of time

The UK chose the system it thought it could handle

This is the problem:
Within the EU, there are standard rights as an EU citizen
Over 1 million Brits made important life decisions assuming they would always have these rights

• but after Brexit we won't

Once we become a 3rd country, the EU has no power to order its then 27 members to give special rights to UK citizens, over and above those of other 3rd country citizens

In fact, most countries are giving us some extra rights, but these won't be equal to those of an EU ciitizen
*

Well said.

@FloatingObject Well I guess ID cards, fingerprints and photos are standard for French citizens so I don't have a problem from that point of view, but why they need the fingerprints again I can't imagine. I think people who don't live here have no idea about the bureaucracy. We have just bought a new car and must have signed and initialled over fifty pages. Just bonkers.

@missclimpson France has national ID, don't they? I know our IDs are now biometric that's why they want fingerprints. Maybe it's the same?

Mackerz - but why bother implementing a complicated and hugely expensive system when we already know that EU migrants contribute more than British citizens? What would be the point? It would just be spending money to appease people who have no understanding or interest in how the economy works but have a vague idea of keeping furriners out!

@SafetyAdvice0FeedWhenAgitated Yes they do have biometrics and our titres de séjour have it. As it is all stored remotely I am just questioning why they would need to do it again.

Mackerz the app reads the microchip in our passports. On which our fingerprints are stored. So yes, they take our fingerprints.

Also the £35k threshold at which one becomes a net contributor to the economy is predicated on someone born here - not someone who comes here as an adult, having had all their schooling and childhood healthcare paid for by another country. Which muddies the waters somewhat.

@missclimpson that's a good question actually. Same is in UK with non EU. My husband has already given his fingerprints three times 🤦

@Mackerz

"Some of my friends have been concerned about the levels of racism tolerated in Eastern Europe for a while, especially as some of it seems to have made its way here. Did you see what happened to some of our players in Bulgaria last night?"

It tells a lot. About you. Poland and Bulgaria aren't neighbours even.
Neither Poland, not Bulgaria are in Eastern Europe. You have this association in your mind Easter Europe = barbarians but you are too wester to say that straightforward, aren't you?

Before Football European Championships in Poland BBC was warning about hate. What happened? nothing apart from Irish fans clashing with Croatians.

www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/opinion/who-invented-fortress-europe.html

I have just seen that hate crime can be prosecuted in the U.K! Great! I have read articles recently about

• a woman in the U.K being told to f%#k off back to Poland
• an Irish man who is the head teacher of a school in London, being told to f€)k off back to his own country
• the story of a french woman on here who has been told that it is the frogs fault that the UK have not been let out of the EU.
• I have also received abuse about my own accent.

If one more person in the U.K says something to be about my accent, usually (f:/k off home) I am going to report them to the police. These people are in a local area, so I know that I can find out who they are.

People can be prosecuted for hate crimes.

I would encourage other EU nationals who live in the U.K, and are receiving abuse - to report it to the police.

We do NOT need to spend our lives being abused. I am not taking it anymore

People voted for and against Brexit for their own personal reasons. You can’t be angry at someone who has never met you before and voted to leave because it was their personal choice because your situation had been worsened by it.

I've always voted against my own self interest for the interests of those I consider to have the greatest need. More fool me because many of the people with the greatest need for the EU seem to have been convinced to vote against it.

Wow, we have an apologist. @alredy thinks it’s ok for two British women of colour (one in a headscarf) to be threatened by four men in a Polish registered car and spat at.

Do you also think my friend and I should return to the land of our grandparents (despite being British citizens), so that it doesn’t happen again?

@Mackerz

What happened to you is horrible and cannot be justified.
But it might still be worth mentioning that Bulgaria is about as Eastern European as Greece, Macedonia or Turkey.

the distance between Sofia and Warsaw is comparable to the distance between London and Ljubljana btw...

@Mackerz no one said it's ok. Because it isn't. No matter what nationality or colour who is they shouldn't be attacked.
Nice try to turn @alredy post into sticking up for racists...

Still waiting on that link you got your data about Eastern Europeans are negative for economy btw

Mumsnet is well known for having an issue with people of colour. It’s something that is often mentioned in twitter and reddit.

Like it or not, some people of colour have families who have been here for generations and are British citizens. We aren’t going anywhere. Many of my friends have experienced similar incidents to me and have voiced concerns.

Have you heard about the Vanessa Feltz interview from earlier today yet?

Transcribed by another poster on the football thread.

Vanessa Feltz on BBC London today. She had on 2 Bulgarian sports journalists at different points. One said it was a shame but only 2-3 people were responsible for the racism even though VF said that the pictorial evidence said otherwise. The other also minimised it and said the Bulgarian coach could not hear it and it was just a few of the crowds. Their reactions were not reassuring in the least.

A Bulgarian living here for the last few years said that the behaviour was prevalent in Bulgaria - they took against anybody with a different skin colour or religion.

They also had several black callers who were either working in Eastern Europe or on holiday, where they had experienced bad racism. Some said they were fully supportive of leaving Europe because they felt hated by a lot of the countries in the EU.

VF then shockingly mentioned a holiday she had been on in Croatia with her partner who is of Nigerian origin. She said they were in the pool in the hotel where they were staying out, swimming. They were asked to get out of the pool. She said they complied but they were bewildered why they had been asked to leave. She sought out the assistant manager who said that people did not like to see black/white couples there, people find it upsetting and that's why they were asked to leave. The manager just sort of shrugged it off and said that was just the way it was there.

E.g: Belgium (they’ve changed a few things to accommodate the burden of proof for certain British immigrants – tbf though the requirements are still quite strict). The Netherlands (they’ve rolled out the proverbial red carpet, lenient); luckily, they’ve scrapped that part of a law that would entitle Brits in the Netherlands to keep their British nationality (if they want to become Dutch; the law does entitle Dutch nationals in the UK to keep their nationality in case they obtain the British one)…

Anothernotherone

Sorry enlightened self-interest doesn’t do it for me. E.g: in the Low Countries most are ‘useful’ (read: relatively wealthy, highly educated) additions, but still it’s not fair. I’d prefer an easier, more generous pathway for e.g a Syrian refugee. I somewhat disagree with the successful integration part.

I have absolutely no issue with permanent residency that might lead to citizenship; if they meet the current rules. Even though, especially in countries that allow dual citizenship, you’re ending up with token-Belgians etc... They are only that because they want the tool; they want to pay less for their children in university etc, FOM. You get the picture. Most of the time you’re helping already privileged people.

@Mackerz "Some said they were fully supportive of leaving Europe because they felt hated by a lot of the countries in the EU."

That would be interesting, if they found that the Leave vote was given a large boost by black or Asian brits who feel the way you describe. I mean it kind of goes against the cliche of the racist white white van man causing us to be leaving the EU.

Floating it would be very ironic indeed to find that racist White Van Man and Brits of Asian or African descent actually agreed on something and voted the same way for entirely different reasons.

Can you imagine the complete OUTRAGE if EU nationals were required to be fingerprinted in exchange for settled status? Its fucking ridiculous.

I couldn't care less. We have to apply for our national ID cards once we reach certain age and fingerprints are taken anyway. I also had my fingerprints taken again when I applied for my passport and I also had them taken again when i went to the embassy to renew it.

Aren't British people the ones that are outraged about having national ID cards? (I think DH mentioned it once many moons ago). Most EU countries have them and possibly fingerprints are part of the process. So if you are staying in France and if that's what all their citizens are doing why should you be any different?

@FloatingObject

I personally did vote remain. I’m not fully pro EU but I thought we had a decent level of influence and were better off trying to reform it from within.

I haven’t seen any stats on the ethnic makeup of the leave vote but I know some of my non Anglo Saxon friends voted leave, as they thought free immigration from the EU was unfair as it was getting harder and harder for family reunification immigration (or even visits) from outside of the EU.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned but one of the injustices for UK citizens in the EU who have lived outside the UK for more than 15 years is that they had no vote on Brexit, as with other elections. Not an unreasonable rule for normal political elections but totally unfair to be denied a vote in a ref where your rights (which you were exercising) were at stake.
That's fairly fundamentally undemocratic in my view.

EU nationals in the UK have my every sympathy - the racist environment is disgraceful & settled status should be granted without question.

It is a great shame that citizens' rights have been bartered as they have. I don't blame the other EU countries but it would be impressive if they collectively took the moral high ground on this & sorted it out for UK residents. Perhaps that might shame the UK government into doing the right thing although I doubt it.

Why is it being said Bulgaria isn't in Eastern Europe, it definitely is, even if it's correct that the disparities between EE countries are really huge.