AIBU to be really pissed off with EU countries?

[FloatingObject]

This isn;t a general Brexit debate, this is about the rights of foreign nationals NOT being reciprocated as it was claimed they would be.

You know it's serious when the Guardian finally bites the bullet and publishes what it doesn't want to publish. For reference: www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/14/britons-in-europe-face-citizens-rights-lottery-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit

I cannot believe that for settled status (which is free to apply for via an app) all you have to do is show proof of address and that you're not a criminal.

Meanwhile, here in France (for example), they're not taking applications, it'll cost over 200 quid, all by old-school paper, involving proof of income, etc etc.

I love this country (France), I'm not a huge earner but higher than average, I pay high taxes, I volunteer. I feel as if the countries of the EU (with the exception of Ireland, see article) are completely using us as pawns. I get that Brexit is a complete fucking mess that nobody wants. But that's not our fault. We're people who have made commitments to our host countries. We should be treated the same way EU nationals in the UK are being treated. I have a French friend in the UK who doesn't even give a crap about Brexit, she applied for her settled status and has moved on, her big thing is the climate change stuff. This isn't even on her radar. If the reverse was happening there'd be complete fucking outrage in the UK, and cries of "this is just despicable, these are peoples LIVES!!!!"

Sorry for the rant, but I just think although obviously given my situation (and also my politics) I am anti Brexit, I think this is a really poor show from EU countries, and I think the EU could have come up with a collective solution for British nationals already living in the EU, that would apply across the board. It's not their problem, but neither is it ours. /rant over

Who would pick up the cost, not to mention sort the admin for quantifying (and possibly removing some) every EU national after 3 months of moving here. Most "illegals" are over stayers.

The Home Office. There would've been nothing to stop us from having immigration policies that allowed in/encouraged more highly skilled workers too, with the extra tax they paid funding any extra costs. These were options that we chose not to take. You don't know how many EU nationals were here without any actual right to be here under free movement laws either, that's the point.

If you object to EU free movement laws generally on principle that's one thing, but it is a fact that we chose to (not) enforce them in the way that we did.

You can’t be angry at someone who has never met you before and voted to leave because it was their personal choice because your situation had been worsened by it

She absolutely can and has every right to do so. In this case I blame the French state for making the decision to eg impose income requirements when they didn't have to, but it's also a fact that this wouldn't have happened without Brexit. She has every right to be annoyed with the people who voted for this.

Also it is really disingenuous to talk about "low skilled" jobs - as if they are somehow less important. So-called low-skilled jobs are precisely those that farmers and care home managers are now having great difficulty in filling because not enough Brits want them.

Yes, it is a fact that we're currently unable to fill all the 'low skilled' jobs the UK needs to fill. That labour has to come from somewhere or we have a problem. The idea that someone's value can only be measured by what they bring to the Exchequer is one that we might be about to taught the limits of.

YABU to blame France when it’s the UK that caused this whole mess.
I’m ashamed of our country. We’re self-sabotaging while the world looks on with incredulity.
We’re a laughing stock

@SesameOil Yes, exactly. I'm not disputing the fact that this is the UK's fault. I do blame the voters, in fact I blame Cameron. But I'm also saying I don't see why it wouldn't be the French state's fault that they are imposing things like income requirements (how are the elderly and disabled or ill going to manage?). They didn't have to do that. The UK isn't doing that. People then seem to have gone on to mention racism, problems with the app, but when it comes down to it the fact is: the requirements are not reciprocal or even very fair. And that is completely up to each state, not the EU or the UK.

One of the problems in France is that different préfectures do it differently. Our titres de séjour (three years ago) cost us about 500€ for the two of us, although the actual cards were "free". We had to get some new birth and marriage certificates for our (long dead) parents, get certificates translated by a sworn translator, make five round trips of 120km to the préfecture and photocopy a ton of documents related to tax, pensions, residence and health cover. Each dossier was about two inches thick. We spent hours queuing and waiting to be seen.
We speak fluent French (yes really some pensioners actually do), but the whole thing was exhausting and stressful.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

There was no big issue with the EU before the Eastern European countries joined because the countries of Western Europe were fairly equal. The low paid are better off in most Western European countries than they are in the UK.

I don’t blame all the Eastern European’s for coming here in search of a better life. In Poland for example, abortion was (maybe still is) unavailable and there was no state help for single mothers (I think there is a bit now but not as much as there is here). So as a single mother in Poland it would make economic sense to move to the UK, work part time and claim benefits. These people are a negative on the economy. What about all the car washers, cleaners etc being topped up by benefits? Of course there are people who come from Eastern Europe who are net positives to the economy, they’ll still be able to come here, they’ll just have to get a visa like Americans, Pakistanis, Egyptians etc do.

It’s actually less racist to have a merit and skills based immigration system open to everyone in the world, than it is to just let lots of white people in because they’re from Europe.

And people saying well, tough shit for them, they should have sorted their paperwork out shouldn't they, what took them so long, etc etc etc - what about @GCAcademic 's mother in the UK? We have sympathy for her dont we? What I'm saying is why does it only work one way in peoples minds?

The UK is the country wanting to leave. Why on earth should the rest of Europe make any allowances for us. We (apparently) want it so we, as citizens, pay the price for getting it

@missclimpson
Yes I hear you. And people on here are complaining settled status is a pain because you have to use an app. Jesus give me strength... Anyway I went to a British embassy meeting where they said any CdS you have will be invalid and you will need to reapply after Brexit.

It works when it is reciprocal but the countries in the EU are no longer of equally standing- economically or socially.

I guess you could say that in regards to some countries.... The UK was once also called the sick man of Europe. I guess we'll simply need to hope for the best with Brexit. And that history won't repeat itself....🤷🏻‍♀️

I also feel like some people forget the original idea behind European unity. 'never again' / Nie wieder Krieg.

The current situation (on a slightly larger scale) also strengthens the argument for European unity imo. There's a reason why politicians like Putin and Trump dislike the EU. And no, it's not because they care about your children's education.

@smemorata

It’s interesting if you see that broken down by country. Danish people tend to be a net positive to the UK country (I think they were the highest), along with other Western European countries. Eastern Europeans are still a net negative overall, on the economy I’m afraid.

@user1471453601 Because leaving the EU, and showing decency towards the people currently living in your country, who made their lives in your country on the basis of former agreements, are kind of two separate issues.

Otherwise it works both ways and the UK could just turn around and say: Right, we've voted to leave so we're leaving. All EU citizens who have been living here and made families here, you need to make an appointment at your local council and come and show us you make over a certain amount and pay us £250 otherwise you're out.

Which is essentially what some EU countries are doing.

Mackerz - I don't see how that matters. If you are open to EU citizens then you have to accept them all. And you still "win" overall. Moreover it's not just about money . As I said in pp the fact is that we can't actually fill the posts we need to without the lower paid workers. Even if they contribute less we need them!

@smemorata

You said that we gain more by having EU workers here than not, which isn’t entirely true.

Someone coming here to work 16 hours a week, topped up by a lot of benefits, isn’t contributing. Neither are people who do cash in hand work as cleaners or in a car wash. So not ALL EU migrants are a benefit to the economy.

Of course there are people who come from Eastern Europe who are net positives to the economy, they’ll still be able to come here, they’ll just have to get a visa like Americans, Pakistanis, Egyptians etc do.

Nope, not necessarily the case at all. It's perfectly possible to have a job offer or a business idea that would make you a net contributor to the economy and still not meet the requirements for any of the work visas. In the same way as is sometimes the case for Americans, Pakistanis, Egyptians etc now. There are a lot of restrictions around work based visas, and there are companies now who are unable to employ the people they want because of them.

You've also not factored in people who may cost more by their presence than they pay into the pot in taxes but who do jobs that we need. Something is going to need to be done about that. We have yet to finalise and implement plans for that something.

It’s interesting if you see that broken down by country. Danish people tend to be a net positive to the UK country (I think they were the highest), along with other Western European countries. Eastern Europeans are still a net negative overall, on the economy I’m afraid.

Do you have a link?

*So not ALL EU migrants are a benefit to the economy.

Obviously! But we are not talking about individuals we are talking about as a group. Individually there are a lot of people who contribute nothing at all. If we are evaluating whether on the whole it makes economic sense to have EU workers in the UK then yes it definitely does.*

*and it does for a variety of reasons certainly not just economic but I was just pointing this out for a previous poster who seemed to be arguing the opposite.

@Newearringsplease

When did we stop caring about other people?

Many British citizens live and work in EU countries for all sorts of reasons and just because they do so doesn't mean we should disregard them or cast them adrift!

My son went to university in The Netherlands and now works there, pays taxes, pays his health insurance, has learned Dutch and has been welcomed by the Dutch and has no problems. However, he cannot get dual citizenship as the Dutch don't allow it, so we are very worried for his future there, especially if there's a No Deal. He wants to stay in The Netherlands. Ok, he chose to live there but he's still a citizen of this country.

I care about all our citizens living and working in the EU.

A lot of people would agree with checking income of EU citizens - taking back control etc? The UK needs foreign workers to continue working in the health services etc so the income level would need to reflect those crucial workers

I’m one of these EU nationals here. My husband works in software engineering for a company you’ve heard of. We still couldn’t get the app to work on my phone and I ended up borrowing a friend’s phone for another go. That’s not good enough either, so I’m now gathering 10+ years of tax records etc (which they must already have on their system at the Home Office, since I give them my NI number in every interaction) to demonstrate just how much I live here. I’m still 2-3 unpleasant steps from dealing with an actual human.

What other European countries do (in the current situation and in general) is set out clear requirements and assess applications against those requirements. It’s only the UK, in my experience, that says A, does B, requests C and delivers consequence D while putting the blame on the applicants.

@FloatingObject Theoretically we only have to provide photos of our existing cards and passports and pay 119€ each or thereabouts to swap our EU cards for TCN, but I will believe it when I see it. Oh and another trip to the préfecture for new photos and new fingerprints (not sure how the latter will have changed but hey).

A lot of people would agree with checking income of EU citizens - taking back control etc? The UK needs foreign workers to continue working in the health services etc so the income level would need to reflect those crucial workers

We need foreign workers to continue working in more than the health services, though you're absolutely right to highlight that as an issue. There is also the question of the care sector and agricultural workers. It's not as simple as just getting British people to fill the roles. And it's not like eg curry restaurants, who've had a real issue with the visa system not recognising their needs over the past decade or so but who are essentially optional. The UK can just decide a particular restaurant sector is less important than policy and can wither away, but we can't really do that with food or care.

The UK did actually introduce a minimum earnings requirement for EU workers in March 2014, but didn't try and remove people who didn't meet it. Was only an issue when they tried to apply for permanent residence.

@pikapikachu

Or we have salary floors for different job categories? Say 35k minimum (I believe that’s the amount of gross salary someone should be paid to be a net contribution to the economy) for corporate type jobs but have some special visas for jobs that are lower paid. Seasonal worker visas too, along with working holiday visas for under 30s to come here and gain work experience - this is already in place for Aussies/NZers/Canadians so we could just extend it to EU countries. Australia manages something similar.

@missclimpson
Good point I completely forgot the fingerprinting.

Can you imagine the complete OUTRAGE if EU nationals were required to be fingerprinted in exchange for settled status? Its fucking ridiculous.