Do you judge mothers who don’t breastfeed?

[HarryHarry]

I’m sorry - this is long.

For medical reasons, I was unable to breastfeed my son, so I was determined to do so with my daughter. Having tried it for a few days, I must say that I really, really dislike it, to the point that it’s starting to affect my mental health. It’s not just the pain and the discomfort (I know they will eventually disappear). There are other reasons, which are too complicated to go into here. I haven’t decided yet whether I will stop, but I don’t think I feel passionate enough about it to force myself to keep going when I hate it so much.

The only thing that’s stopping me is the judgement of other mothers. The thought of giving up is making me feel so incredibly guilty - like I’ve failed as a woman and a mother - mostly because of how much they go on about it. Today I went out for a walk with my two children for the first time and a woman I only vaguely know from baby groups came running out of her house to talk to me. At first I thought she wanted to see the newborn but actually she just wanted to lecture me about the importance of breastfeeding. Even though I lied and told her it was going really well, she still wouldn’t leave me alone. She made me feel utterly shit for even contemplating formula-feeding and ruined what should have been a special day with my children.

So I have two questions for you... Do you judge mothers who don’t breastfeed? If so, help me understand why. Why is breastfeeding so important to some women? Why do they feel so strongly that other women should do it too? (My husband thinks they just don’t want other women to have choices they didn’t have but I am not that cynical). What will I be missing if I decide to stop?

He can’t even spell feminist.

C section or not his tiny prick would still feel well erm you know like a tiny prick so he may be a lucky man but poor woman!

@Fuma yep I hear that but I have no interest in belittling other mothers and making them feel like failure for their choices, whatever they may be.
I just think it's really shit to make new mums feel like crap.
Not saying you are doing this of course.
Ignoring the pervy dad troll btw.

So the way I see it is:

Some women want to breastfeed and find it easy. They should be allowed to say so without getting a bunch of shit about being insensitive, shaming, smug etc.

Some women want to breastfeed and find it hard. If they still want to, they should get informed support from their HCPs to enable them to make the best attempt they can. If they don't, they shouldn't, and shouldn't be 'encouraged' to keep going if they do not want to. If a mum is conflicted or uncertain if she wants to stop or not, I'd say on balance that she does want to keep feeding, because breastfeeding when it's going wrong is fucking psychic and physical torture and no-one would keep doing it through all that if they didn't really want to (PROVIDED they are not being shamed for not wanting to).

Some women want to breastfeed and physically can't, or have been given shitty advice and so lost the opportunity. This is horrendous for them and they should be supported to come to terms with it in whatever way they need.

Some women don't want to breastfeed. They shouldn't. And they should be enabled to proudly own that decision, not dress it up by saying they tried but this or that or the other meant they 'couldn't' when really they just didn't want to. It's a valid decision, it's adequate parenting, and the fact women feel they have to feed on in spite of not wanting to, or to lie about their reasons for stopping, ends up with a statistical nonsense we currently have where we have the majority of British women who are 'unable' to breastfeed as a complete outlier to the rest of the developed world's national averages. Which mean the women in the 'want to but struggling' category get a completely bogus idea of their chances of things working out, and become the women in the 'wanted to but got shitty advice' category. And then feel the need to salve their emotional woulds by sharing that shitty advice far and wide.

The fundamental issue here is misogyny - in both directions. Mothers can't do right for doing wrong, the endless picking over everything and blaming us for anything no matter what we do shows that while many things divide this sick society of ours, the one thing the majority can get behind, even the majority of women, is shitting all over women.

Each to their own I say. People go on about this magical bond but if I breastfed or not it wouldn’t make me love my child any less.

Sometimes it works for people, sometimes it doesn’t and we shouldn’t put so much pressure on ourselves to do it.

@MiaowMix absolutely. Caring for a newborn is hard. Recovering from birth is hard. No one should be berated for doing something that is neither dangerous nor neglectful.

I think you make a good point @TheFurminator about women feeling the need to justify their choice which has led to a fairly widespread perception that there are lots of women who can't physically breastfeed. It's what I meant about women being lied to about their bodies' capabilities.

Breastfeeding rates in the UK are pretty dismal but this is never going to be resolved by browbeating new mothers who then feel guilty about bottle feeding in a culture that has tacitly and at times explicitly normalised and promoted bottle feeding for decades. When a woman bottle feeds she is making an entirely typical and usual choice for a person in the UK. But because we don't want to admit that, we make women feel that they have to make some kind of excuse, because after all how could you be making a legitimate and rational choice when your midwife spends nine months telling you that breast is best.

Never mind that you've spent the previous 27 years of your life seeing at best maybe a handful of women breastfeeding in public and none of the women in your immediate family have done so. Never mind that your own mother is unlikely to have breastfed and therefore can't give you any useful advice when you hit a problem. Never mind that the vast majority of primary healthcare providers are not trained in breastfeeding so pretty much anyone you come into contact with during that first year will similarly be unable to advise you once you've been discharged from midwife care seven days in before your lochia has even stopped. Never mind that unless you can pay for a lactation consultant you really are on your own with this.

No, none of that is relevant, not when there are posters in the doctor surgery telling you that breast is best and some shops might give you a chair to sit on in the toilet when you are feeding, so actually we've all done everything we can to raise breastfeeding rates and if you still choose not to do it then you're going to have to justify yourself somehow.

As long as your nipple isn’t in my mouth I don’t mind what you’re doing with them.

I don't understand all these women who judge (at whatever level)

It's not your baby. They're being fed. They're healthy.

Why do you care?

@solihooley -please give one example of where I “misquoted” you. I didn’t quote you at all. Your response to a story of a dr who used his own resources to save a baby’s life was some dogmatic nonsense about how he was promoting formula. Because you were judging a poor woman in a developing country for not breastfeeding. It must be a formula company conspiracy- can’t just be because she can’t (she said it wasn’t possible and had stopped, we didn’t get into why as that would have been pointless). You have no complaints at all about my response to you - what you said was awful.

@BertrandRussell - your experience was that your ds lost weight but ended up ok. Others might have a different experience. Also i think the guidelines are 10% weight loss and anything more is concerning, no? So I don’t know what this “information” or “facts” are that you want to impart to women but can you please try to have to a think about if they are actually facts at all. I certainly wouldn’t be ignoring drs advice to give formula if need be.

Ultimately as I said, I’m happy with support for those who want it but pressure and judgment for NO WOMAN. Newborns are extremely hard work and we should stop thrusting our judgement onto women.

Also basic bodily autonomy is a human right. Our breasts, our choice. Same with birth choices. Up to us. And we should absolutely not stand for our welfare being ignored. Eg - a HV advising women to stay awake for 48 hours and “cluster feed” to establish breastfeeding. Where is the concern for one of her patients (the mother) in that? How is that a practical suggestion? We are humans. We need sleep!

We need to stop feeling bad about wanting sleep or food or bodily autonomy. We need to have HCP who consider our welfare too.

Breastfeeding is a choice and we should be free to make whatever choice we want.

I'm from an area where bf rates are particularly poor and the shit i hear from other women is astounding, usually at baby groups etc before they realise i'm bfing.

Bfing ruins your boobs, no man would want you after, its paedophilic, bf babies are always hungry, its cruel because they don't get enough milk, you can't ever go out, can't have a bath (?!). That masterof1 is probably married to one of them.

Do i judge women for formula feeding? I had to really examine myself on that one. I want to say no, but if i'm totally honest, i think it's a bit lazy and selfish to not even try to breastfeed. I don't feel great about that though and couldn't articulate quite where it comes from.

Most of us do know that breastfeeding is best, and I think most of us that do will try it and do our best.

However there is, I think, a misconception, caught up in the fervour and focus on breastfeeding, that it is so important that not doing it is like blowing cigarette smoke in the babies face. Formula is perfectly healthy, not as good but it is going to cause lasting damage.

Also, the babies we should be concerned about, in a public health and society way, are those who are of a high risk of neglect or damage. A high level campaign to catch pregnant and new mums and offer support from abuse, addiction, financial help, parenting courses etc that is probably the best use of money and resources at the moment, as the knock on effects of kids bought up with abuse and neglect are massive and pass on generation to generation.

Let us see clearly and prioritise.

Sorry I meant NOT going to cause lasting damage! Oops.

Hi op, I hope this message doesn't get lost and haven't read full thread but wondered are you experiencing Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex? (DMER)

@fuma - if the midwives and HV are not trained in breastfeeding, why were they going on at me about it?

Face it, theres very heavy pressure from the NHS to breastfeed to the point where my HV told me she wasn’t allowed to discuss bottle feeding or answer my questions. There is certainly breastfeeding support and help (and pressure) along with the posters. My mother is fond of telling everyone she breastfeed me for two years too and she’s not the only one.

No one lied to me about my “bodies capabilities”. Given the indoctrination I (and my friends) were given about breastfeeding I am surprised that that anyone is told they can’t breastfeed but, who knows, perhaps some are. But many more are told they can when they can’t (like me). And it’s not cos We saw some ad for follow on milk on tv - Were not idiots thanks.

We need to stop ignoring womens experiences because they don’t suit our world views. For many women breastfeeding is very hard work or not possible. It’s their choice and we should not be putting pressure on them one way or another.

@reggatonlente - maybe you should think about where the judgement comes from. Many women find breastfeeding difficult. You’re lucky that you don’t but it’s just luck. It doesn’t make you a better parent.

Imagine how a woman who has struggled to breastfeed feels- so guilty and disappointed. Do you really think your judgement is warranted? Imagine how you would feel if someone was judging you for not being able to do something you desperately wanted to do for your child? Try to think of it like that and maybe that will help.

Well i would never voice that opinion, except on a thread where the OP has specifically asked for it...

Oh, and breastfeeding hasn't always been easy for me, and it wasn't just luck i was able to do it. It was hard work and sheer bloody mindedness. I'm proud of doing it and doing it for so long (1 year+).

I judge people who are ill informed and make ignorant comments.

@BertrandRussell Do you have the link to the Finland study you refer to?

why do you think nhs heavily promotes bf?

because it can reduce long term health issues and therefore safe them money.

I really really really couldn’t give a flying fuck what other people feed their babies.

I didn’t breastfeed because I didn’t want too. I tried it for 3 days and it was the worst 3 days of my life.

I did not and do not give a stuff if anyone “judges” me.

@ redchocolatebutton sorry, but that’s not correct. The NHS promotes it primarily because when taking into consideration all of the people having babies, it’s the safest and healthiest thing for a baby across the median. Meaning that it reduces the risk of badly prepared bottles, watering down formula, putting coke into baby bottles and all the other stupid things that occur on a startlingly regular basis. There is a benefit to the colostrum. There is a small health benefit to breast feeding for the duration of the feeding but no long term benefit. It is largely promoted on the NHS for hygiene and stupidity countermeasures.

This thread is full in just 2 days. Clearly the answer is ‘yes’ wouldn’t it be great when this type Of question (for which there seems a weekly thread) is just not responded to as there is no judgement

I do feel breastfeeding mum's are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they have an easy time and find breastfeeding easy and enjoyable, they're "privileged", showing off, being insensitive, called smug sanctimmies. If they found it a challenge and had to work hard to overcome the difficulties, they're martyrs who should have just given up instead of surrendering themselves, denying their partners their role as a father, and apparently now being "antifeminist" for breastfeeding at all (??).

So what those who say they "don't care" how other women feed their child means, it's fine to do whatever you like provided you never ever talk about your experience (if that experience is successful breastfeeding). So unlike every other aspect of motherhood (I remember talking to my mum friends about our babies' poos, their sleep patterns, their first smiles, their behaviour in car seats, weaning onto solids etc) it is not for general discussion as to talk about one's breastfeeding is considered either gloating or martyred whatever you say. So we talk to other breastfeeding mums, people who understand, and aren't offended by our exeriences, and then get called "the breastfeeding mafia" and told we are shunning FF mums (the vast majority) and adding to their oppression. You literally can't do right for doing wrong. See also feeding for less than 6 weeks or for more than 6 months. Honestly, sometimes you want to start bottle feeding just to feel normal, so just feeding your baby doesn't become a tiny political act at every baby group once there past the newborn stage. I'm bolshy and worked my nuts off to be able to feed, and I still felt intensely awkward when everyone who asked if I was (still) breastfeeding launched into their tale of why they couldn't (I wasn't asking, it's your choice!), and usually followed it up with everything they've ever heard suggesting bf is not necessary/not beneficial/actively harmful after a certain point. Presumably this is filling an emotion need of theirs rather than just trying to make me feel shitty and weird. But the outcome is the same.