To let you know that Flora

[GladAllOver]

isn't the only product made by Upfield.
You might want to be aware of some others:

Upfield's notable brands include Flora, Stork, I Can't Believe It's Not Butter, Rama, Country Crock, Becel, and Blue Band.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upfield_(company)

Frankenfood.

Ppfft. What a load of crap.
MN moderate their forums pretty tightly.
This company has a flippin cheek to suggest that (a) there's some kind of herd/hive mind (b) we're all transphobes.

I keep seeing "transwomen aren't women" isn't that rather bigoted? The go-to line is "show us an example of transphobia" but I'm sorry I don't screenshot them all....

I do.
Or should I say have. (I'm not anymore, learnt from experience)

What do you mean 'learnt from experience'?

You mean you were asked to further back up what you were saying and you couldn't, don't you?

And now you tell everyone that there is 'no point' in debating because 'people don't listen'.

It will backfire once the shareholders see the profits drop. It’s mainly women who manage the household budgets and do the shopping

Yeah, and even if it is women who mainly manage the budgets and do the shopping like you say, your comment hinges on presuming all women think the same.

I keep seeing "transwomen aren't women" isn't that rather bigoted?

Of course transwomen aren't women. If they were women they wouldn't be trans would they?

How is it bigoted to say that?!

Good to know. I am fully behind them in this. I have found my views increasingly alienated on mumsnet the last year or so and these posts and the people agreeing with flora have made me realise I am not alone in my views. Mumsnet can often have a vicious, unpleasant side and it is good to see a business say "no, we won't advertise here till they get rid of the negativity"

Not sure if I've got this right

Looking at Twitter, the company investigated the complaint and made the decision within a day? Is that correct?

I keep seeing "transwomen aren't women" isn't that rather bigoted?

Bigoted? It’s entirely accurate. If transwomen were women they’d just be called women, but they’re called transwomen. The clue is in the name.

Another bland statement of bigotry and no substantive evidence or argument.

What do you mean 'learnt from experience'?
You mean you were asked to further back up what you were saying and you couldn't, don't you?

Just typed out a lengthy response and deleted it all. Can't be arsed. As I said, I'm learning (apols if you're genuinely wanting to know, as haven't seen your name around before)
Nope, not that at all. Just there's some in the debate I think are dangerous and I don't give a shit if that sounds dramatic, it's how I see it.
There's plenty of posters who really do want a discussion, and it's a shame for both so called "sides" when a handful of others want anything but.

That was directed at flyingspaghettimonster

FWR is openly hostile to anyone who even slightly resembles a trans advocate.

You get troll hunted, insulted, undermined, name called, sniped at and literally told to leave and that you are not welcome.

The longer you persist in trying to be present in the discussion the more the attacks are ramped up. If that doesn’t see you off, you get the ignore treatment, or recipes, or grey rock.

Bollocks.

The grey rocking and recipe thing (which I don't partake in but have seen) comes from seeing TRAs on Twitter announcing that they have 'been on Mumsnet' and then screenshotting stuff totally out of context, or worse, writing something transphobic and then screenshotting that on Twitter as proof that MN is so 'transphobic'. Or someone like Stephanie Hayden coming on and massively gaslighting. This has happened quite a lot, so some posters are understandably wary and a bit hostile to very obvious trolling.

However I, and many other posters, have spent literally hours and hours debating this issue with people who have a different viewpoint. I have done this without accusing anyone of being a troll or calling them names.

Some posters have spent a long time collating links, articles and evidence with which to back up their arguments and use them in debates. They do this because they feel that this is an important issue and are trying to bring it to a wider audience, which they have pretty successfully done.

This company has a flippin cheek to suggest that (a) there's some kind of herd/hive mind (b) we're all transphobes

They haven't said we're all transphobes though.
Just they don't agree with transphobia undercurrent on here and that's fair enough.

Mumsnet can often have a vicious, unpleasant side and it is good to see a business say "no, we won't advertise here till they get rid of the negativity"

Yes, women robustly arguing for their hard won rights are 'vicious and unpleasant' and 'negative'.

They should only be talking about cake recipes and prams innit!

Debating with Trans advocates always falls to pieces with the simple question. Define woman. It really is a belief like religion. Either you believe in the gendered soul or you don't. And it isn't bigotry to not believe it just as it isn't bigotry to not share the Catholic belief of transsubstantiation.

The longer you persist in trying to be present in the discussion the more the attacks are ramped up. If that doesn’t see you off, you get the ignore treatment, or recipes, or grey rock. Bollocks

NOT bollocks, not in the slightest.
I've got absolutely nothing to DO with trans discussions away from MN, what I post has been squarely from what I've seen on here, and discovering the feminism boards.
The difference with me is that I won't blindly swallow what I read, I look to other sources. See the other side to speak.
I knew nothing of trans issues before MN.
The longer you participate on here in trans issues it absolutely does get ramped up, there's nothing that won't be pumped out to try and discredit and shut you up.
Whether it's you're a man, a TRA, posting from America if you dare to post after midnight, it's fucking ridiculous.
I posted on one trans thread, first ever time with this name even though comment on lots of other stuff and was told I was a he etc....
It's rampant.

Love it when women are called vicious and unpleasant for having strong opinions. Whatever they may be.

We’re meant to be seen and not heard dontcha know!

I’m really enjoying the people on twitter saying that mumsnet should be shit down

There they are on an open site which permits robust discussion furiously complaining about mumsnet, an open site which permits robust discussion

But mumsnet is seen as women talking so they need to be shut down

If you’re on here complaining about transphobia and not on twitter doing the same then there’s a really decent possibility that you’re a misogynist and all about the men

And also a big fucking hypocrite

Love it when women are called vicious and unpleasant for having strong opinions. Whatever they may be

How about when women are called men because they presumably aren't thinking ladylike enough?
That happens a lot too.

The reason why I think it's bigoted is because the majority of trans women aren't trying to "erode your rights" or get their cocks out in your toilets or changing rooms, yet people on FWR talk about it as if it's everyone. A lot of the discussions are "what if" scenarios and I don't get the amount of energy it must take to spend so much time banging on about it. Deliberate misgendering is rife, too. I just wish there was some respect around the issue for our fellow human beings. These people are real and I'm fed up of seeing posts which tar them all with the same brush. It's incompatible with my values and those of most sane and tolerant people.

If a transwoman has done something wrong to you directly, I'll understand your point, but I guarantee 99% of people ON FWR haven't even met one in real life. It's like those twats who bang on about immigrants stealing their jobs when they've been retired for 20 years.

Sorry to burst your bubble ladies (and some gentlemen) but I dont think this multi million pound company cares what MN supporters do

I keep seeing "transwomen aren't women" isn't that rather bigoted?

It's a physical, biological fact.
I've nothing against transwomen, nothing at all. I have seen very little on here against transwomen, because it very properly gets removed.

But transwomen are not women.

Transwomen aren't women - they are transwomen. They identify as women, they feel more comfortable living as women, and for the most part society can treat them the same as women. But they won't ever be women because they aren't ,and will never be, female.

For most of the time this won't matter because most transmen and transwomen want to quietly get on with their lives just like everyone else. But they know that as transwomen they don't need smear tests, and don't have periods, and that as transmen they don't have prostates and can't produce sperm (to use a couple of examples).

We've ended up where we are because current activist goals state that transwomen are women - that it's possible for women to have penises, that sexual preference is discrimination, that self-identification should grant you access to single sex services - domestic violence shelters, all-women shortlists, women's sports and so on. Pointing out the biological differences between males and females - bone density, strength, genitalia - is termed transphobic.

I support the right of transmen and transwomen to identify as such. But I won't willfully ignore biology and go along with the lie that human beings can change sex, and that being a woman or a man is nothing more than a 'feeling'.

Peter, you just did the exact thing of defending the hostility of FWR on grounds of incursion by TRAs!

Enormous congratulations to you for resisting the common approach of name calling, trollhunting and disparaging posters who dispute with the GC orthodoxy.

This is not about individual posters however, but the way the community in the board functions routinely, and has been functioning for the past two years and more.

Perfectly normal, non activist, non TRA or MRA, mn posters who venture in with differing viewpoints are harangued and personally attacked and insulted relentlessly until they go away. It’s not OK, and mnhq are not managing to stop it from happening.

That’s why there’s not a lot of debate in that board. That’s why so many mners have hidden it.