Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

I agree about the gender stereotyping going on here, even if unconsciously.

She’s 9, she will learn and develop her own personality, and you seem to think being ‘selfish’ precludes you from being kind/empathetic, it really doesn’t, (I was very much a ‘selfish child’, and I’m now the lady that people come and cry on in the playground/at work when they need someone to talk to.

Also I was going to address your comment about us all being on the spectrum but others have so won’t repeat that, but I do want to emphasis here that having ASD does not automatically mean you are selfish or lack empathy. My DS9 is extremely empathetic and kind.

Re gender thing- I would be the same if she were a boy. Selfishness isn’t attractive in either gender and for me this is a child thing not a gender thing. My husband feels the same about her behaviour as I do.

Grumpy - I’m sorry your mum made you feel like this. I’ve explained before that I use appropriate behaviour orientated language rather than writing her whole personality off. She is funny, talented, a natural mimic and we have loads if laughs and fun together as a family and one on one with the kids. This doesn’t reflect how life is focussed for us, but is a concern that we’d like to address.

I’m hearing all th advice on how to tackle re rules for behaviour rather than expecting empathy. I’m going to work on that.

Butchy - you might be right. It’s drcinueky not gender but perhaps we have all slipped into expectations regarding birth order.

To the person who has talked about mirroring, that’s really interesting. I hope I’m addressing that by discussing both angles with her as they arise?

The differences start young - a second child comes into the world compromising and accommodating another child's needs, often one with a louder, more forceful voice that gets listened to more often. A first child doesn't have that, and also has a huge amount of affection lathered onto them from an early age and are the apple of everyone's eye, which can only encourage a very "me me me" approach to life.

This is obviously very eye of the beholder, because I think all the most self-centred people I know were younger children who were always indulged as the baby of the family - but then I'm an older child!

Praise doesn't work and just creates pressure on the child.

Is she ASD?

I am really empathetic but if the best chair in the room is available and everyone arriving is equal mobility then why shouldn't I take it? Would never push past someone for it or take it if someone needed it more but otherwise why not? Same with biggest piece of cake, if i am serving I wouldn't give myself biggest but if first in the queue why not?

Would she give up her chair if granny arrived? Would she agree to splitting the last piece of cake? Would she have shared the iPad if asked? If little sis appeared happy and she was happy why would she automatically share. If you had battery in phone and dh didnt would you offer him a shot if he was sitting reading a paper?

I blame the parents!
2 children.
2 ipads.
Weekly use allowance - 1 hour per week.
Only 1 charged up ready for use.
Amazing that WW3 didn't break out.
You must be doing something right OP but try and be a bit more thoughtful next week😉👍

This is such an interesting post. I would love to be able to look back in years to come and see what careers your daughters choose.

My DS is very similar to your DD2 and I absolutely understand where you are coming from. Even as a baby he would never challenge someone taking his toy, he would much rather have just let them get on with it. Hes almost 3 and quite happy to queue in the playground etc when other kids jump right ahead. He gets sad when others are sad and is always trying to cheer them up. I'll admit I see a lot of myself in him, I wouldn't put myself out there and quite happy to sit back and let others take recognition. I'm quite happy with my little lot and my little family. I guess you could call him a bit of a pushover if you were thinking very negatively and I do worry at school/uni and so on whether he will be quite content with what is left for him rather than pushing forward.

It sounds like quite typical children’s behaviour to me, grabbing the biggest slice, nabbing the I pad first. Yes, It would be ‘nicer’ i.e. more considerate to share, but in the real world that doesn’t always happen.
I would work on DD2 self esteem, I think she needs to feel comfortable challenging her sisters behaviour. I know my 2 boys would have ‘fought to the death’ over a single iPad and my younger DD is quick to point out any inequitable behaviour and I doubt she’d have accepted an iPad situation.

It might be worth trying to teach some of the expected behaviour explicitly; ie. when there's cake you offer to serve everyone else first and you don't take a bigger slice for yourself. Her internal understanding of other people's thinking/feelings will develop as she gets older, so for now help her learn how to appear to be kind, as a matter of manners/ politeness/social skills for interacting with others.

Then see if you can get her to experiment - how do people respond to her when she behaves kindly? how do people respond to her when she appears to be thoughtless? Most of us are kind and considerate at least in part because it's easier to go through life not being in conflict with people all the time. If she gets something out of being kind that's valuable to her, she's more likely to keep being kind.

I don't think you're describing a lack of empathy, so much as different personalities.

And no, I wouldn't expect the first child on the ipad to share their precious hour with the other. I suspect you'd have found if dd2 had got to it first they would have done the same.
That also depends on what else they like doing. Ds would have been head down wanting ipad, dd2 would probably have glanced at it, and decided to do something else rather than have ds looking over her shoulder. Dd1 it would have depended on whether there was something else she wanted to do, and how the other one had asked for it.

My dd1 and dd2 are not the same in empathy. They're both empathetic, but in different ways. Dd2 is more obvious.
Dd2 would say just the right thing to the crying child, she used to give away all the contents of her party bags, she's always spending on other people.
Dd1 wouldn't do any of those things. She wouldn't go and speak to the crying child because she would feel she couldn't help, for example.
However if someone comes with a problem she can solve, she will spend hours of her own time sorting it quietly. If someone needs something she'll buy it-but she won't buy for the sake of it as dd2 will.

They've both got empathy, but dd2's is usually more obvious. They can both be selfish too.
Look out for times when your dd1 is generous. I suspect she is as generous, but in a less obvious quieter way.

Op, so interesting that you raised this as I am very aware of a similar situation with siblings.

You mention selfishness but I think you are also picking up a lack of empathy and that is concerning you.

I think you have a valid reason to be concerned as we know that good relationships in life require empathy and kindness . She could be successful in a career as self focus definitely helps but happiness in life generally comes from good relationships.

Your youngest might need assistance with being more assertive as now she can rely on her parents to balance the equation but she won't have that protection in the outside world.

In the sibling situation I know of the youngest is more assertive and both children are now older. The younger sees the behaviour as they often share friends through a sport and feedbacks the impact on the eldest socially, in a concerned way as genuinely cares for the oldest. Oldest seems mostly ambivalent or unaware. The selfishness does get noticed by peers so has a long term impact. Both siblings are bright. The oldest also has traits of taking words literally which didn't become apparent until teen years and they don't understand or relate to a range of motions.

I often wonder if an assessment would help (but it would have had to be organised privately as no there are no educational concerns) more for the eldest to he aware as I think relationships will be more challenging for them.

My DS is similar - also the eldest - whereas his younger brother is always thoughtful and kind to others, even to his own detriment.

DS always expected to get the best, the biggest, the newest, the most expensive etc and there was always hell to pay if someone else got it instead.

He was the kid who always had meltdowns at kids parties if he didn't win a game or a prize. He didn't really care if someone else was upset unless it impacted directly on him.

He was never cruel or mean, he just didn't notice other people's upset. These are traits we've worked hard through positive reinforcement to alter or augment.

I'm happy to say though that now he's in his mid-teens he's starting to show signs or empathy and kindness that I've never seen before. Last night I was tired and while I cleaned up outside in the rain he made me a dessert (well, he melted some chocolate over some sliced apple and heated it up - a bit rank but such a sweet thought) and without even mentioning it, cleared up a huge mess in the kitchen (not made by him!) and made tea for his brother.

Ordinarily if he'd done something like this it would be because I'd nagged him / he was being paid / he wanted recognition but lately he's doing it because it makes other people's lives easier.

I guess I'm saying that whilst he'll always be naturally more self-centred than his DB, it won't always be your daughter's defining characteristic. She'll change, she'll grow and since you're setting such a good example, she'll become a more well-rounded human being. Hang in there!

I think you have this backwards. You need to help your DD2 to be more assertive so that the behaviours between the two girls balance out. DD1's selfishness is enabled by DD2's compliance. By all means continue to model empathy and encourage DD1 to be kind but you only have to spend five minutes on AIBU to see that it is a lot harder to go through life as a people pleaser than as a person who naturally gives minimal fucks.

You wait until she is a teenager! Teenagers all naturally become very self centred so prepare yourself for that. They do come out the other side.

And you need to stop labelling your daughter as selfish. Sounds like normal behaviour to me and your younger DD is the unusual one. Most children don't want to give the toy away to someone else. It's perfectly normal.

And always thinking of others first isn't a particularly great trait to have. Thinking of others as well as yourself is more healthy. Sometimes you put others before you and sometimes you put yourself first.

Some people are good at imagining what other people's feelings are even though they've never experienced the situation. Other people can be equally well meaning but find it difficult to imagine how other people are feeling unless they've already been in the same situation themselves. Your elder daughter sounds a bit like she may be in the second group - if so, she will grow in empathy as she goes through life and has unpleasant things happen to her (as they inevitably will as they do to everyone).

I’m a selfish person and frankly I wish more people were. I find backward-bending people pleasers incredibly feeble and annoying. I care about social issues, I’m loyal and kind and would help my friends in need, I understand when honesty becomes rudeness, but in my own life, you bet I come first at all times. Not everyone sees that as an undesireable trait, I gravitate to similar people more than I do people who always put themselves second. Your perspective is not the only correct one. Is she actually causing hurt to other people with her behaviour? If not, then is it really a problem? Agree with others she sounds like she’ll do well in life. Caring too much about what other people think isn’t a positive thing.

Thanks so much for all this, especially similar tales and s with positive outcomes.

To the person who said ‘wouldn’t you take the best chair/biggest piece - no, never. Not really analysed why as it’s just a reflex/instinct but I suppose I think it’s kind, polite and, if I think actively now, makes other people think I’m kind and polite which makes me happy? But it’s not learned behaviour, I have always been like this and quite happily so. I would notice if someone didn’t have an iPad and share it. As would my youngest. Eldest is categorically not unkind - it’s an absence of awareness rather than malice.

I am proud they didn’t fight in retrospect. They are very well behaved girls but in this case because one completely capitulates to the other. This I will work on. And I will charge the bloody iPads! Big parenting fail there.

My sister and I were similar but the other way round ( I'm older). It sounds like you are doing the right things. I think you have to be careful though that you don't inadvertently encourages the behaviour by giving attention to it. Maybe try more to reward positive behaviours. My sister and I are also very close in age - 18m between us. Perhaps it is based in some sort of sibling dynamic.

My disinter was utterly selfish and entitled under her early twenties when she started changing and is now incredibly kind and empathetic. Incidentally one of her friends who was one of the most selfish people I ever met also changed when she became a parent herself and gave up her career to start and run a charity overseas for no material gain.

People do grow up and change.

I have two ASD boys, similar ages, similar dynamics (sort of - my little one will sit back for ages asking quietly for what he wants but will eventually hit/kick his brother quite ferociously if my older one truly pushes him too far). Anyway! Something we found that helped is this:

1. Don't think that this is her personality. I doubt it is. At age 9 her personality isn't developed fully. This is behaviour. We look at problematic personality in adults, we look at behaviour with children. It may be parts of the person she is growing in to, but just like the grumpy toddler throwing a tantrum likely isn't demonstrating an angry personality to come, behaviour at 9 years old is also unlikely to be a clear representation of her eventual personality.

1. Don't treat her like she is being naughty. There's a good chance she simply doesn't understand yet. Perhaps she finds 'perspective taking' difficult. Perhaps she is over focussed on the here and now. Perhaps she doesn't have a full understanding of emotions yet - hers and other people's. Maybe she can't recognise other people's body language yet in order to be responsive to them. Perhaps her social skills aren't developed enough yet. Maybe your explanations are not using words she genuinely understands - thinking about thoughts, feelings and behaviour is tricky even for adults.

1. Stop asking her why. When you ask anybody 'why?' their first response is almost always 'I don't know' unless they raised the topic in the first place having already thought it over.

Maybe think about trying these:

• Get a box of emotion cards on Amazon. I love mine, they are called The Mood Cards. I use them at home and at work and I love them. Help her learn about HER emotions. She doesn't have a hope in hell in understanding other people's emotions if she doesn't understand her own.

• Start modelling things like perspective taking in daily life for both girls. Say things out loud, but not about them. "Gosh I wonder how it feels to be the postman having to walk to all these houses in the rain today." Make it a conversation not just a comment. At work I'd get them to pick out one of my mood cards to try to match the postman's feelings. The mood cards are so lovely it is actually enjoyable.

• Make up games that involve guessing things from body language only, you'll need to be creative and make it fun.

And when you've been doing all that for 6 months, pick an incident if it is on-going and without any negative emotions from you, do a social story with her - google them.

Find some other words than 'why?'. 'Why' can unintentionally be emotive and accusatory. Try 'I wonder what was happening for you?' 'Can you tell me about it'

Tell her stories that will help her develop consequential thinking. Tell her something that happened to you, what you did and what the outcome was, focussing on things that are relevant to her. Make them demonstrate your own choices and how they impacted someone else, and about other people's choices and how they impacted you. Do it every day as you load the dishwasher or cook tea, simple things not deep and meaningful. This is not a 'let's sit down and talk' type of thing.

And my god, I always take the biggest piece of cake. Nobody else is going to incase they are seen as selfish so I'm actually doing them a favour.

@Wheredidigowrongggggg

First of all I believe that everyone is capable of change no matter what are you are. As you have said your younger daughter is the mere opposite so it is not your parenting from what I can tell.

To me you are only going to make progress through loving, caring and nurting steps. I haven't read others opinions on this but the being hard on her strategy I would advice against for the moment.

The opposite of selfish (in my opinion) is generiosity, care, love etc. I would set up family activities which provide you as a family the opportunity to encompass these traits. Your daughter will learn through these actions and are you not singling her out as it is a family activity.

I think this is important as from what you are saying, this issue is much bigger than using an ipad.

For example; I would arrange a time at least once every month or week when as a family you volunteer in some way. It could be going to Tesco to buy food and donate them to a food bank, it could be something similar or buying food for the homeless. When you do these activities you should teach your children that it is about helping those less fortunate than them. It will show them to appreciate the things they have.

Communication is also very important so you should have family discussions, even around the dinner table where every night you all discuss what you think being generous means and why it is important to do help others.

I would advice that when you plan activities, games etc for your children, even with friends or cousins that you plan things that can be done as a group, where they have to share and work together. I would refrain from purchasing technological gifts or gifts or toys can that be used only by one person. Always make sure that it is something they both do together as sisters. For example, board games are great as you have to do them as a group, twister is also a good one.

I would advice to make most things you do as a family as a sharing one. I.e. even food, ones you need to share. I would have the food in dishes on the centre of the table and then each person gets theres dished out. Encourage your daughter to let others be served before her.

Lastly if you want your daughter to change, then show her the right way to act through your actions. i am not saying by any means you are selfish or a bad parent (I do not even know you so I cant judge in anyway) but just ask yourself what you can do or change in your own life to go that wee bit further to be extra generous, caring and loving to others both in your home and outside.

These are just some ideas I had which sprung to mind when I read your post OP. I hope some of it was of use to you and good luck.

I feel I just have to post as your dd sounds so much like me and how I was as a child!!
I was naturally selfish, always wanted my own way and my laid back older brother always gave in to me.
FWIW I dont think your youngest is a 'doormat' she just sounds like she has a laid back personality and that's fine too.

The point you said about her being hypersensitive to dead birds or the homeless and loving animals shows that she has heaps of empathy!! I had/still have heaps of empathy. If I saw someone really struggling I would go out of my way to help them, but I am still naturally selfish in every day life. People wouldnt notice though as you learn as an adult to curb it, you learn what is socially acceptable.
I would never feel guilty about taking the best piece of cake because who cares? I wouldnt do it though because I know it's not 'ok' to do that, I've learnt to be polite.
BUT I am still a very kind and caring person when I think it really matters. I am loving to my family and I love people fiercely and unconditionally, most people would say I am a kind considerate person. I am passionate about animals/vegan and I hate seeing injustices and would stick up for someone being bullied etc BUT I would still want the window seat on a plane, and the best room on a holiday )

What I'm trying to say is that she is the way she is and you can't change her. She will learn how to behave as she gets older and her behaviour sounds very normal for a 9 year old. Just please dont make her feel like a selfish person, it will hurt her self esteem. By all means continue to encourage and model kind behaviour but embrace her for who she is and try not to worry.

I have two cousins who are very like your daughters. One is constantly harassed, put upon and has little time for herself or her own interests. The other has enjoyed a high-level international career, has clear boundaries, and uses her time in ways which benefit her and her family.

They have always been like this, their lives are very different, and they are very close to each other.

This is who your daughter is, and constantly finding her lacking and trying to change her is really quite selfish on your part.

I think you are probably a people pleaser, your youngest is similar to you and has learnt that she gets positive attention for this.

You said about not taking the biggest piece/comfiest chair: Not really analysed why as it’s just a reflex/instinct but I suppose I think it’s kind, polite and, if I think actively now, makes other people think I’m kind and polite which makes me happy? This is very much a learned behaviour - look at a group of 18 month to 2 year olds - they are all selfish. It is social conditioning that changes their behaviour.

Some children especially those on the spectrum are more resistant to social conditioning - or even don't notice it at all.
Some who you might see as more empathetic are overly sensitive to social conditioning. I don't think its real empathy BTW - it is not necessarily identifying with how another person feels - but is knowing how other people will react to their behaviour eg. showing concern is rewarded and approved of.

Sometimes fighting is healthy - maybe you need to reward the younger one when she stands up for herself.

And I will charge the bloody iPads! Big parenting fail there.

An oversight, not really the stuff worthy of a stately homes thread.

LisaSimpsonsbff

yes, I didn't say it would be the case for everyone but in my experience I do find that first borns are more frequently self absorbed or selfish than second borns, especially as children, and it is obviously far more likely to be the case here from their respective behaviours.

You see parents admitting all the time that they didn't have the time to fuss as much over their second born. A majority of second borns will never experience being the sole focus of their parents affection so it is not something they grow accustomed to. What's more, I see a lot of second children getting less of a reaction when they are small because there will always be an older child there who is capable of more impressive things (think a baby straight out of hospital with a toddler running around being attention seeking, who gets the most attention?)

I'm aware that some younger children do get the baby treatment. But whilst this can have negative effects on how they behave, in all honesty I think it is also more likely to make the older child selfish, because they perceive an injustice and end up with a "what about me" mentality. When I was little, my sister used to feel (whether rightly or not) that I got away with things more because of my age, but in retaliation she would do things like straight up ask me to give her my pocket money, and because I was young and didn't understand and respected her because she was older, I would just do it. When my parents found out this had been happening for months they were furious, but she had told me not to tell them. I may have received fair or even preferential treatment from my parents on occasion, but it still increased my sister's selfish streak as she was old enough to be offended and view it as "right" that she get more in return. She was also old enough to use her powers of manipulation against someone that was less likely to put up a fight, and as you can see from this example, it also made me less assertive, which also rings true of OPs experience with her second born.

I should clarify, I love my sister dearly and she is not a bad person. These things died down over time and were at their worst around the age of OPs children, but she is still fundamentally quite self absorbed and at times downright selfish.

I could explain similar examples of other sibling dynamics I have seen but it would take far too long. I'm aware there are other dynamics out there but OPs scenario seems so in line with my theory that I personally do think it's highly likely their respective personalities are largely a product of the order in which they came.