Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

I think you are OP are right to be concerned. Be watchful.

The race to the bottom comments are scary, no wonder we live in such a horrible world if being selfish has become desirable!

I have a daughter who is now over 40 years old.
Traits I saw in her that I struggled with have increased as she matured but also are measured by the more human, happy side of her.
I don't believe we can change a child's personality...only encourage better behavior.

it is hard watching someone you love grow and you love them but they are not a person you would like if they were not your DD !

She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort

Well, that's more than I did at the same age. How is your daughter with animals - is she caring and unselfish with them? I loved and cherished my pets with a passion at the same age, but was totally meh to the needs of actual humans. I don't think I experienced an iota of empathy or selflessness for any humans until I was about 11.

I do think you're overthinking this a bit, but perhaps because the difference between your two daughters is so striking. There was a thread recently about a boy of 16 who was very selfish when it came to buying presents for family members. Fair enough up to a point, but he still expected the full nine yards for himself when his birthday and Christmas rolled around. I'd worry more if your daughter was evincing that attitude at age 16.

I’m sure she’s somewhere on a spectrum but aren’t we all?

No, we are not

I wondered about autism too as my dd was very like you describe at that age. She was diagnosed aged five. Wouldn't have even occurred to her to share the iPad, absolute fury when asked to offer a share of anything.

She's 13 now and lovely and generous. I spent a lot of time really noticing when she did something nice and telling her how kind and generous she was. I'd say "oh dd that is SO lovely, you're a really kind girl do you know that?" and it became a self fulfilling thing. She wanted to be that kind girl because it was noticed and commented on. She's no pushover though

Goldfinch - you have summed up exactly how I feel. That’s what makes me ache and feel guilty. But you’re right, she isn’t someone I would like if she weren’t my child. How awful is that?

I also loved the goldfinch - want to see the film.

It’s very clear who your favourite child is.

Butchy - she says she loves animals but never remembers to feed them, her sister does it all. But she’s devastated if they bring in a bird, if she sees a badger in the road, or if she sees someone homeless and it will haunt her for weeks. But wouldn’t piss on her sister/another child if she was on fire. It’s all very odd - absolute absence of sensitivity coupled with intermittent hypersensitivity.

What you’re describing as a lack of empathy doesn’t sound that way to me? It sounds like she’s not very observant about her physical surroundings - she’s focussed on what’s she’s thinking about or intent on what she’s doing.

I’m like this. I was the slowest to respond when my elderly neighbour fell in front of my family - was still stood there working out what had happened while my kids had rushed over to help. But I care - I check in on her all the time - just often get stuck in my head and then don’t notice my physical surroundings. I’ll sometimes make a cup of tea for myself on autopilot and not make one for DH, for example, despite him always making one for me when he makes his own.

It’s not wrong to help DD1 with giving the situation around her more thought. But my bigger priority would be teaching DD2 to enforce boundaries, TBH. Being a people pleaser is tough.

Ok I’m going to be blunt and say gender stereotyping is at play here because I bet you wouldn’t even bat an eyelid if a 9 yo boy displayed similar behaviour to your eldest. This is ONLY coming into focus because both your children are female and as such you want them both to be nice and generous and pushovers. Actually in your situation I would be encouraging your youngest dd to speak up when she wants something because the traits your eldest is displaying aren’t selfish at all, they are actually quite normal ones.

Could this be coming from a lack of confidence in general.

I ask because I have a Dd who even in nursery would actually go over to a crying child and find out what was wrong then set about helping them to put things right.

If someone had said something unkind she would bring them over to apologise
Or if the child had been hurt she would go and ask a nursery assistant about getting the first aid kit and that Sophie needed a plaster as she had scraped her knee.

Dd has always had huge amount of confidence and the ability to talk to anyone adult or child from the moment she could communicate.

Ds on the other hand would walk past a crying child because
A. He is incredibly shy and
B. He wouldn’t know what he could do.

He probably would share his iPad with his sister but only if he couldn’t help her recharge the other.

Anyone outside the family and he wouldn’t even think to do this.

He does have a hearing issue though and sometimes he just doesn’t hear/understand what is going on.

Perhaps your eldest is mirroring the behaviour from school? It's common for a DC who feels dis-empowered in one situation to re-enact that dynamic when they are in a situation where they feel more in control.

Whata- you are wrong. I understand one child more, perhaps like them more, but my love for them both is equal, if different. I would walk over hot coals to make each of them happy. I understand I have to make more effort with the eldest because I don’t always understand her, and actively make time and space for us to just be, together, in each others company one to one. We are as tight as you like, and of course I am not as brutally honest with her as I am with you guys in a blissfully anonymous forum.

I do massively appreciate the input though, all of it makes me think, especially the negative. And that’s good.

In real life the majority of the people that bang on about lack of kindness,selfishness, rudeness etc are pretty selfish twats themselves. They give on their terms and expect to receive on their terms as well.

For some people kindness has become "you do what I want you to do,when I want it, how I want and I'll be nice in return". Aren't we spreading kindness like confetti?

I'm nice ,kind and empathetic (hard to believe I know) but I won't fuck myself over because of that

I think you're being way harsh. It's clear that you don't like your elder child, and it'll be clear to her to. I don't mean to be facetious, but have you tried actually liking her and enjoying her personality?

Hi OP

It might be worth getting her checked out if you really think she is more selfish than others her age or than you would expect.

It sounds like she struggles with empathy and I think that's a very difficult thing to teach as it is as much a feeling as a conscious thought process.

Could you maybe concentrate more on some concrete 'rules' such as for food, if there is only one left and everyone has had the same (or nothing), ask everyone first. If there is only one of something to start with, go halves with your sister (one cut one choose etc). If there is only one toy, take it in turns. If there are two toys, take it in turns who chooses first etc. She may get on better with specific rules. When she has learnt these you could look at different scenarios with her which fall slightly outside these rules and talk them through?

Also, it sounds as if she just doesn't realise...but if her sister had asked for some time on the iPad, so once it had been suggested to her, what would she have done? Would she have argued and refused? If so that does suggest that she knows what's fair but doesnt want to do it which I guess is a bit harder to fix than just being oblivious

Butchy - she says she loves animals but never remembers to feed them, her sister does it all. But she’s devastated if they bring in a bird, if she sees a badger in the road, or if she sees someone homeless and it will haunt her for weeks. But wouldn’t piss on her sister/another child if she was on fire. It’s all very odd - absolute absence of sensitivity coupled with intermittent hypersensitivity.

That doesn't sound like lack of empathy to me, OP. Total fucking laziness perhaps, hence letting her sister deal with the feeding (I loved the feeding part as a child, cleaning out the cages, not so much!).

I certainly found it easier to be empathetic to animals and complete strangers as a child than my own family. I suspect that phenomenon is not wholly uncommon, even in adults.

Ok I’m going to be blunt and say gender stereotyping is at play here because I bet you wouldn’t even bat an eyelid if a 9 yo boy displayed similar behaviour to your eldest

Could be a kind of unconscious bias around stereotyping about how the elder child is supposed to behave too.

Sounds like my eldest DS. He has high functioning autism. He doesn't get jokes either!

What squirrel said made sense, dont forget both parents will differ greatly, one more assertive than the other, this often makes for a good relationship, and children take after their parents. The strongest more assertive in nature often survives, and I assume you wouldn't want either of them to be pushed around when with their peers. Having said that, many people who believe in automony deliberately allow this to happen, personally I would find a way D1 needed to share something with D2, and had to actually ask for it politely or go without. Your obviously a great parent.

OP be careful to teach her that she can't have the biggest slice of cake because someone else might want it some times and not because she doesn't deserve it. Selfishness is basically valuing yourself and your wants/needs highly so you don't want to get rid of that completely. Yes of course you don't want her to grow up to be a horrible person but a little bit of selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing.

I’m worried by the language you use in your title and post, and hope your daughter doesn’t hear you talking like this. My mum said VERY similar things about me when I was a child - I grew up hearing her tell people and myself that I was selfish or lacked empathy and constantly telling me that my feelings and behaviour were wrong and abnormal. It affected me very deeply, ruined my confidence, made me feel like there was something wrong with me, that I was inherently bad. The behaviour that my mum commented on might be something as small as what you have mentioned about the iPad - maybe as a child she simply didn’t think to offer. Would have been nice if she did, but she’s a child. Maybe she just got absorbed in what she was doing and just didn’t think to. And you’ve sat her down and tried to force her to see and admit that she’s done something wrong, that her behavior is wrong. Ugh I can’t even say how awful this sort of thing used to make me feel - I remember the absolute misery of feeling like I just simply didn’t notice, I simply didn’t think, I didn’t mean to do anything wrong? Maybe it would be better if you simply said ‘X, let your sister have a go now’ instead of sitting your poor daughter down and saying the things you did, making her doubt herself and her behavior and making her feel like there’s something wrong with her. Sorry but this post really hit home to me as you sound just like my mum and the damage this did to me as a child was immeasurable - it took me at least 20 years to realize that actually, I’m a nice person, I DONT lack empathy, etc. I’m now NC with my mum over the way she treated me as a child (this is just one of many things she did that really hurt and affected me badly). But I just wanted to say this as I really hope you can think about how the language you use around your child, the words you call them, and the implications of your words and how this can make them feel and affect them in the long run. I don’t mean this in a nasty way at all, I just genuinely wish so much that someone had said this to my mum.

You’ve mentioned a few times that you understand DD2 much more than DD1. In your shoes I’d make understanding DD1 the top priority. Things like simple and fun online tests, where you can all compare your results might help a bit. These two were enjoyed by my kids and were helpful. (I’m not claiming they’re rigorously scientific, but they’re some of the best available in terms of personal insight and opening up discussion about differing personalities, how they mesh within a family, and comparing strengths and weaknesses.)

icould.com/buzz-quiz/

www.5lovelanguages.com/quizzes-2/child-quiz/child-quiz-5-8/

I would work on accepting her as she is , as she is unlikely to have a personality change realistically. Work on practical stuff such as you should have shared the working iPad rather than empathy which is abstract and harder to teach , also I’d work on other daughter assertiveness ( or be v grateful she doesn’t start a fight all the time)

Teddybear, I agree with you.

The gender stereotype of girls being ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ is markedly visible here. Please,don’t let us be raising another generation of female people pleasers. Have you read the myriad unhappy threads on here from women who have been brought up to put never put their happiness first?

Long term I would be more worried about the younger not asking for things and doing everything.

I was a high-flier at school too (what they would call gifted) and have always had lots of friends...