Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

Your update is interesting. Even as an adult I’d take the biggest bit of cake or the best seat. I dont think about it or analyse it either, it just wouldn’t occur to me not to. I want the nice things for me. I guess that’s more important to me than people thinking I’m nice and kind (which I can be, but not always)

OP, I think you are being a self-righteous cunt to a perfectly normal child. I also think you are doing your younger child a disservice by encouraging her to be a people-pleaser.

Clearly nobody ever encouraged you! How dare you call someone a cunt for no reason other than that you disagree with them?! You wouldn’t say that to anyone’s face, I’d bet my house on it.

In my experience I think that children learn to behave and overcome their natural traits. At least outside the family!

OP you weren't always kind and polite and thinking of others first. As a woman, it is learned behaviour. You mention you get a lot of positive regard for the way your behave.

There is no benefit at all to being a doormat. Your daughters become at risk for people who trample their boundaries and predatory men, con artists, etc. when they are older. It's a recipe for low self-esteem and marrying someone who treats them like a skivvy.

I think if you keep harping on DD1, she will feel defective. She isn't you and she isn't DD2. I don't see anything wrong with her at age 9. They both seem like well behaved children.

I would actually work more with DD2 on being more assertive and asking for what she wants and knowing that her needs are important. Always putting others first and putting yourself last isn't a good habit.

I think the person who needs the most work is you, to realise that DD1 is her own person and just because she isn't like you or your DD2, doesn't make her selfish, bad, or defective. Work on accepting her for who she is.

OP, I think you are being a self-righteous cunt to a perfectly normal child

Another day, another poster to add to the ‘hysterical fruitcake’ list. 🙄

if I think actively now, makes other people think I’m kind and polite which makes me happy?

Which is also selfish.
You're doing something because you benefit from it. It makes you happy. Why other people's opinion of you is a source of happiness for you that's a different story.

Plastic patty - what a nasty insensitive post. Don't take any notice OP.

By the way some posters have mentioned that empathy isn't innate and that it is conditioned.
I don't actually believe this. I noticed empathy in my child from very young age. Feeling sad when someone was crying, being upset if someone stood on an ant etc. maybe I conditioned that but I think it came naturally. I do think children are naturally selfish though, which is different.
They are pleasure seekers pure and simple, some more so than others - some are more laid back and others more strong willed. You can't change someone's innate personality IMO

OP, do you have siblings? How did your parents expect you to behave within the family?

I ask because my mum in particular used to let me know that I was selfish. Sometimes very openly - I remember being told over and over 'you're not the centre of the universe', and other times by praising 'unselfishness' i.e. putting myself last. (I'm the oldest and think this is probably related.) This had very long lasting and negative consequences for me, to the extent that it has taken years of therapy for me to accept that it's ok for me to have needs and to try and get them met. By the way - I don't think mum would necessarily think this was such a defining part of my childhood, but it's very easy for a child to feel labelled.

Anyway, the point is that - despite recognising the very negative consequences of these messages in my childhood - I REALLY struggle when 5yo DD behaves in what I've been conditioned to see as selfish ways. I know that I don't want her to end up with the same issues as me, but my gut reaction is to try and suppress her behaviour when she is putting herself first.

I don't know if any of this will ring true for you, but if it does I wanted you to know you're not alone. As PP have said, it's important to strike a balance so that kids grow into adults who can assert themselves while still behaving thoughtfully towards others. But if you've been brought up to prioritize unselfishness it can be very hard to see where that balance should be. I would definitely think about your expectations in relation to both DDs and how best to help them both grow into adults with a healthy balance of consideration for others and self-worth.

I feel like I recognise my grown daughter in your description. And she is by far the most successful professionally of our grown children. And there's not a happy ending. It's a sadness and her 3 siblings are well aware of it and very used to working around it. We circulate holiday gift lists. One of the 3 siblings asked me what to do as none of her requests were affordable for the others. They clubbed together and bought her some exercise vouchers that she had asked for. I did explain it to her (gently pointing out that she earned about 4x what any of the others did) and she shrugged and said 'I've earned my expensive taste, I'm not prepared to cheap out for them'. An eye opener for me, I had been overlooking and excusing and rationalising for 28 years. Still love her. Just don't approve of that aspect of her character.

@Butchyrestingface
No, just someone who can see what's going on.

Every day I read threads like this and think 'How can you not know this is autism?'

Honestly, every day.

Google 'girls + autism' - look long and hard at the results.

And no, we aren't 'all a little bit on the spectrum'.

No, just someone who can see what's going on

Is that what they’re calling abusive fishwives these days?

No one is naturally selfish. You have to make them share.

Totally disagree Beautiful3. EVERYONE is naturally selfish, it’s just socialised out of them to varying degrees

Won’t honest - the biggest slice of cake, the nest chair etc translates to getting the promotion, the better pay check, or what you want as an adult.

I would take a look at why you value people seeing you as kind so much - I would take being respected than liked nine times out of ten. That’s not to say that I’m not empathetic- I am, but being assertive and wanting what you want is not a bad personality trait as long as she’s not actively nasty,

I have exactly the same situation with my two girls. I also worry about one of them being a people pleaser and am working really hard on that. With the ‘selfish’ one (who also adores animals and is very caring and kind to them), she shows no empathy to other people at all. PP are suggesting that it can be very normal at that age but I think, as a parent, you know when it is more extreme. Mine has been through a number of assessments. She isn’t on the spectrum but is borderline. I think the diagnosis is incredibly important because it shows that she isn’t actually intrinsically ‘selfish’, she is simply incapable of actually understanding other people’s feelings and therefore unable to take them into account without huge extra support. With the right kind of support, she is learning. Just maybe considering?

Wtf happened to my typing there!!

Selfish people live longer - that's my maxim

I'd beware of enforced sharing under the guise of being 'nice' all the time. Is it selfish to make the obvious choice? Who in their right mind would choose second best?

In the iPad scenario I would have allowed the younger child to have her hour at a time of her choice once the iPad was charged. Job done with no recriminations.

My four rub along with varying degrees of 'selfishness'. I intervene very rarely and only in truly unfair situations that they haven't resolved themselves. Usually, I'd just ask them what they think is fair. I do think a degree of selfishness is important in life, especially for women, so they don't have a life of self-sacrifice for others at the expense of themselves.

Also - someone has to get the “best slice” why should it never be you?

Ignore PlasticPatty, what a vile, unhelpful and clearly projecting post.

There's an awful lot of water between 'doormat' and 'selfish and entitled'. It doesn't have to be either/or.

OP what happens if you step in? If you said to her "no, it's [DD2's] turn, you had [whatever it is] last time. It'll be your turn again next time."
The last bit is important, otherwise she'll accuse you of favouring DD2, but it sends the message of fair.

That sounds like fairly typical child behaviour. You have labelled her as “naturally selfish” and you’re seeing the way she acts through that lens.
This.
She sounds normal to me. How do you share an iPad? The allowed screen time is lower than usual. The other dd didn’t ask for a turn. I’m not surprised she didn’t offer to share.
She’s the eldest and it’s normal for them to take a bit more, unless they’re little saints.
You’re expecting too much of her.

Ignore @ PlasticPatty absolutely foul language. Let’s hope her own children have a little more empathy

OP I’d be more worried about your younger daughter being such a people pleaser - she could well end up being a doormat when she’s older.

I quite like the sound of your older daughter - knows what she wants and goes after it. Good for her! I think this trait will help her to go far in life. It certainly would in my career (law) and incidentally is exactly how every male colleague of mine acts!

Maybe stop trying to push them into a certain mould. Of course you should tell them off if they do something actively wrong (e.g. snatching something off the other one) but in the iPad example you give above I don’t think she particularly did anything wrong for a 9 year old.

P.s. she will be getting the message that you don’t like her personality very much (even though you’re not saying it in those words). This could be very damaging to her self esteem so please do hold off on the criticism of her nature.