Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

Ravens - nothing so severe as to need a diagnosis. She flies at school. She’s now got friends. I’m sure she’s somewhere on a spectrum but aren’t we all?

Black cherry - I honestly don’t think so. They are so different and we cherish them for that (except this selfish streak which I don’t cherish). I’m confident they both know they are beloved.

Your decision to label your child as “naturally selfish” may just become a self-fulfilling prophecy ... give a dog a bad name and all that. As for the insistence that you only criticise behaviour and not person, well I think that’s not a very useful distinction - earnest reprimands about iPad sharing are going to be received as the accusations of selfishness that you actually, secretly, mean them to be.

Slowdown - this has been going on years. When we say ‘why’ she says she doesn’t know. I don’t think it’s deliberate - I just think she has a sensitivity chip that needs work.

Sign her up to volunteering and charity causes. Also don’t cater to her every need and want so she doesn’t turn out to be self centred, she needs to learn life is about compromise.

Don’t revolve your life around her.

Sign her up to volunteering and charity causes.

At 9?

So would you just stand by recrudescence and allow the selfish status quo? What would you do?

Do you not think there is a strong possibility that your youngest is how she is because of your older daughter, as opposed to it being just because it’s natural to her? From how you explain the iPad situation, I suspect she has learned that to try and have an even share (or more) from her sister is to create trouble, and so she doesn’t even bother trying now: and that is replicated at school etc.

You may need to be careful that you don’t try and correct one type of behaviour and reward the other to the point that your younger daughter ends up not fighting for herself at all.

Why do you say you are more protective of your oldest? Is it purely because you worry about her?

I don't mean to be mean at all because if it is this I'm sure it is unconscious but it sounds very much like a PFB situation. Me and my partner are both younger children and both grew up in situations rather like this, and as adults our older siblings are much more stubborn and self centred whereas my partner and I are naturally accommodating. My partner to the extreme and it has had a massively detrimental effect on his life, despite making him very likeable.

The differences start young - a second child comes into the world compromising and accommodating another child's needs, often one with a louder, more forceful voice that gets listened to more often. A first child doesn't have that, and also has a huge amount of affection lathered onto them from an early age and are the apple of everyone's eye, which can only encourage a very "me me me" approach to life.

The ideal, I would say, is probably somewhere in the middle of the two. You need to be careful you're not praising self sacrifice so much that your younger daughter becomes a doormat, and on the other side of things perhaps encourage the older daughter to take up a hobby where leadership is a valued quality but teamwork is necessary, to try and make it more constructive.

I don't think your eldest's behaviour is going to be a burden for them. Being taught to always put other people first isn't necessarily a good thing, especially as a female.

Mrs - they aren’t indulged kids. I do think it’s a bit early for charity work, though it’s food for thought for when she’s a bit older.

I'd just let her be. Men and boys show these behaviours all the time and no one bats an eyelid.

I have to say that, while it might make adults cringe, I think making a grab for the largest piece of cake, pushing to the front of a line etc is fairly common behaviour in children. I do know adults a bit like this and they aren’t well liked trough, so I think you are doing the right thing by making her more aware.

That said, I was brought up to be a total people pleaser and to put other people first all the time and now, with middle aged hindsight, it has been much to my detriment. I agree with the pp that said it is no bad thing for women to be assertive too.

Wise words shamoo and Novembers.

Hamster - I used to work in a field where being headstrong, selfish, driven made you succeed. Honestly wouldn’t want that for her. Don’t want to clip her wings but do want her to appreciate that kindness and consideration make the world go round socially and morally if not economically.

Tayto - no way. Not on my watch. Therein lies a race to the bottom.

Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

So a 9 year old child played with a toy she's wanted to play with all week and is a massive treat. No-one asked her to share it,and so she didn't.

How is that different to any other 9 year old child?

I think you labelling her naturally selfish and seeing her through this Lens, is NOT helpful.

All 9 year olds are a little centred on themselves, it's NORMAL.

Keep praising the good behaviour, help her to understand sharing etc.. and STOP labelling her as nasty or mean in anyway.

She's normal and with the right, caring, loving guidance from her parents, she'll grow up just fine OP.

No, we're not 'all on the spectrum', common misunderstanding.

I'm autistic and at 9 I was a flyer at school and had many friends. The problems for many females mean that they mask successfully compared to boys, and a crisis occurs when they hit their teens, leading to co-morbid disorders like anxiety, depression, and eating disorders. This is why a diagnosis is so important.

Please take some time to research specifically around females and autism. It may or may not be relevant, but find out! There is a huge issue here that for many has meant a late life diagnosis; the research is only just catching up so females, like possibly your daughter, won't have to have the same awful experiences that lack of a correct diagnosis has meant for older women.

Yep I agree she will go far.

Think you need to teach her politeness as a set of "rules"
Ie some children can understand that not running in school is considerate towards others, others just need to
Know it's a rule and they'll get into trouble.

And choose your battles carefully

To be honest I think perhaps you need to work on the youngest’s behaviour, sounds like she may need a self confidence boost. Putting others first all the time to the detriment of her own needs is not a good thing.

Kindness is such an important trait. I think you’re right to be concerned and do want to cultivate this in your eldest.

I’m disappointed by how many PPs think it’s not worth trying, and that it’s fine to be selfish.

I suspect there is a bit of nature, a bit of nurture and a bit of ‘can’t do anything about that’ going on here. You can work at it, but a lot of what I would suggest is what you do already. I would probably reverse any small selfishnesses as well. If she grabs the biggest bit of cake, take it off her and give it to her sister. Let her cut the cake, then let her sister choose first. Etc.

I suspect the problem may be with the younger one, in that she has learned to accommodate the older sister, to know her place in the pack order. Her confidence and self- esteem might need boosting. I don’t think there particularly anything off in your older daughter’s behaviour. She’s the oldest child, and has had all attention on her alone for years. What is she like in a group? Does she do Brownies?

I think there is too much stress here on feelings and being nice and good.

It might be much simpler and easier for a 9 year old to understand if it's more along the lines of 'This is the rule'. So you use your own iPad. You ask if you borrow someone else's things. You divide things fairly. You take turns.

And you praise a child for observing the house rule.

Rather than framing it as about being generous/lovely/moral - it's more about siblings treating each other fairly and there being the same rules for both people. In this house it is not the biggest who comes first. (It will help if you and your partner, assuming there is one, model fairness/sharing/taking turns in your own behaviour towards one another.)

I'm not sure she's being 'selfish' as such. Someone has to get the bigger slice of cake. I think you need to unpack a bit more why you think she should put herself last, who is she really benefiting by doing so? I come from my own bias with this because I was much more like your younger DD. Actually it translated into being a people pleaser with poor boundaries. It's fine to attend to your own needs. It's fine to consider them to be as valid as someone else's. Trying to foster an attitude of putting yourself last all the time is neither healthy or productive. Plus, sometimes, the people pleaser is being selfish because they enjoy the recognition of being 'kind'.
You're working from a binary of good versus bad. Life, and people, are more complicated than that.
As for the ipad, the girls weren't bothered. You've turned it into a moral dilemma when it isn't. The eldest chose the ipad that was charged. The youngest tried to charge the other one.Then played with something else instead. That's ok.

I think you also need to look at your youngest that amount of people pleasing and empathy though sounds amazing actually can be quite detrimental to her future mental well-being. It’s the chicken and the egg which came first. Does you elder daughter behaviour cause your youngest or does hers make the eldest more pronounced. Who is actually at the more far edge of the scale

How exactly would sharing have worked - why did they not come to you and say the iPad wasn’t charging properly and let you deal with it. Is your 1 hr rule so rigid that they felt getting you involved would end it

Older DD sounds very normal to me.

I fear you are going to create a situation with the constant refrain of 'you must be more considerate'. I hope the younger DD also gets a constant refrain of 'you must be more assertive', not a constant refrain of 'poor you, suffering because of your selfish DSis'.

(Over dramatising somewhat to make the point)