Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

Before the DSM5 was introduced Asperger's was the term for high functioning autism. Now neither are used. So they are the same thing. They all now have ASD. HFA isn't a medical diagnosis term. People previously diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome are referred to as being on the higher functioning end of the autism spectrum. Hence high functioning autism. It's an easy way to explain it for people who don't know anything about ASD.

Nope, wrong again. And I don't think perpetuating mistruths under the guise of "being an easy way to explain it for people who don't know anything about ASD" is helpful either. After reading your post they still won't know anything about ASD anyway. Aspergers and HFA are not interchangeable terms, they aren't the same thing at all.
Oh, and there's no such thing as the "high functioning end of the spectrum either."
The spectrum isn't a straight line from severely affected "low functioning" autism to HFA at the other.

Anyway else pick up on the irony of the OP saying that a diagnosis should only be for those who are "genuinely autistic" whilst perpetuating the everyone is on the spectrum trope?

At the time I am aware that HFA was a term used for children with a speech delay but who presented otherwise with the same symptoms as those diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome.

HFA was used to describe autistic children who had speech delay but had a normal IQ, above 70 - in other words when no learning disability was present.

I think it’s a bit worrying that you are labelling your child’s character as selfish for what imo sounds like very ordinary behaviour for a 9 year old. Also the dynamic between your children sounds very normal for siblings. There is often an age hierarchy, with the older child assuming first dibs on everything, and the younger child accepting that as the natural order of things. It doesn’t mean your older child is naturally selfish, or your younger child is naturally more giving. Work on addressing the behaviour by all means, but be really careful about labelling your children this way...

It might help you to think, rather than her being selfish, it is an autistic trait. I have (different) autistic traits, you can have them without having full autism. This would explain why she seemed to be born with it.

To think of it like this might help how you feel about it.

As to what you're doing about it, I don't think you can do any more-you're doing great. xxxxx

It is possible for people to have autism and still be extroverts, or have ADHD while being studious. Both of these will impair people's social skills. It might be worth having a consultant look into.

Even if you think she just has traits, it might be something worth bringing up at school or with the GP, because she might be able to get social skills training to help her. I wish I'd had this!

Either way, you're doing great, best wishes xxx

OP are you and your partner selfish? Most of our behaviour is genetic, adoption studies time & time again show this, so you’re blaming her for something she likely inherited from you both isn’t exactly fair.

My daughter is 10, my son 8. They both show lots of empathy towards me, their Dad and their friends. Dd has no empathy when it comes to her younger brother. My son has some empathy towards his sister but only if she is physically hurt. I was the same with my younger brother.

thegirlwiththecurlyhair.co.uk/

Have a look at this site for girls/women with autism.

Not read whole thread but this just screams autism girls are so much harder to diagnose unless severe..my eldest daughter is like this but over the years I realise she can't help it.Try not to compare her to her sister because I know you will,even if you outwardly say you don't.

This is a really interesting thread. I don’t have an answer for you but I’m curious to read other people’s responses because your daughters sound very much like me and my sister. She was and still is a naturally selfish person almost from birth and has never changed (she’s 35 now). My parents never really challenged her behaviour because they didn’t think it bothered me when actually it did but I didn’t want to get into an argument with her. I do sometimes wonder if they could have changed her if they’d intervened earlier. Interestingly, she has been much more successful (in terms of career and wealth) in life than me so perhaps her selfishness wasn’t an entirely negative trait. I suppose it depends on your own personal values.

Hi,
I too was as you describe as a child. I don’t know that parents could have changed my behaviour. I was resentful of my sister and if / when they tried to intervene I interpreted it as an attack on me. And yes, this and other traits have made me think I am on the spectrum.
My niece is the same.

One of my sons has what are distinctly 'autistic' traits in a number of areas (sensory issues with food and clothes, formation of strong expectations in his mind whose disruption he doesn't cope well with, tendency to take things literally, rejection of comfort when hurt) while being a generally extroverted, sociable and communicative child and holding things massively together outside the family. I think 'autism' (or, perhaps more appropriately, 'autisms') is/are incredibly difficult to generalise on. My ds doesn't have a diagnosis, and we don't think he'd 'qualify' for one, but understanding these traits are 'autistic' in nature helps us work with them and not add fuel to the fire with inappropriate responses.

OP, it's clear 'selfishness' is a trigger characteristic for you. Did your own mother condemn 'selfishness' in others? I wouldn't go as far as some PPs have, but I do see a concern in your being evidently fairly comfortable with 'liking' your younger daughter more and with focusing so strongly on 'kindness' in the guise of always putting others first. As many PPs have pointed out, there is a very, very valid argument for not going overboard on the 'be kind' and 'put yourself last' thing with girls. They'll encounter that demand often enough in life.

I would, IIWY, spend some time reflecting honestly* on why 'selfishness' pushes your buttons so much, and why with this daughter in particular. It may be that your other daughter also shows selfishness that you don'T actually recognise as such because of your fixed image of her, or attempts at 'empathy' from your elder don't appear to you as what they are - your image of them does seem very strong.

*I stress 'honestly' because all your posts are very earnest and very keen to appear to us and yourself as a good parent - which I'm sure you are - it does occur, though, that being a good parent and getting it right (I notice you defined not charging the iPads as a 'big parenting fail') seems to be very integral to your own self-image, which might stand in the way of a process of reflection which might lead to uncomfortable truths. I wonder if a good therapist might be able to help you tackle these things?

Try to see the positive and negative in selfishness. It’s actually very important to be able to be selfish, because you have to look after yourself first in order to look after others. People pleasing is very unhealthy, and while it looks nice to us parents it can become a kind of hell as they get older. Remember that even at 9 she is just a kid and will be for a good while yet.

I get that you don't consider ASD to be a factor. But, please file it away for future consideration, just incase your daughter starts to experience further problems at adolescence. Diagnosis makes an enormous, positive difference to these girls, and helps avoid years of misdiagnosis with other often co-morbid issues such as eating disorders, depression and anxiety.

Can I ask those who children are high functioning but have been diagnosed, did you go through a private assessment and on reflection what are the benefits?

A friend of mine is struggling with this because there are no obvious academic needs and an assessment would have to be done privately.

Havent read the ft but I'd be more inclined to encourage your youngest to stop being a pushover OP. Otherwise she is going to find life much harder than your eldest will. She needs to cause arguments over things and stand her ground otherwise she will always be walked over.

I have this theory that often “selfishness” as a characteristic starts in children when they feel like they’re in “survival mode” and develops into a habit. That mode is when they perceive that one of their needs which they consider essential is slipping away from them.

It’s not surprising that this always happens with PFB, when they have another sibling I think.

Initially they might’ve had every desire and need attended to responsively as if their life depended on it. And then some perspective is used when another sibling comes in the picture as life can no longer revolve around one human.. but to the child, that’s a catastrophe because that’s been their whole world and it’s now being torn apart..

And they switch into survival mode where all they can think of is how to meet their own needs which Suddenly disappeared.

As for the second child, their world started with knowing that their needs and desires don’t dictate their surrounding.

And so, they don’t suffer the phenomena of catastrophising In their head and going into survival mode when their needs aren’t prioritised over everything.

I don’t think the issue is your daughter. I think it’s a very common issue with a first child who didn’t have the gradual shift.

Perhaps she might’ve also leant how guilty you felt about her being left out when you had your second and she internalised that’s and feels too sorry for herself.

Basically it is not uncommon that in the first few years of life we raise a first born to be entitled without realising. But what’s happening internally in their minds is that they’re taking it personal when we don’t prioritize them and that’s how they feel loved and worthwhile.

So you will need to help her find ways to feel loved/ love herself without having to undermine the needs and desires of her sister.

My pfb when he sees me cuddling the baby he cries.. when he sees his baby sister cry for attention he becomes very insecure and tries to distract me..

To them the needs of another child is an alarm bell... that their world is now falling apart. Because that’s the world we created for them and that’s their safety.

I take full responsibility for how my toddler feels and I believe his sister might grow with empathy because that’s all she knows in this world but I expect my son to have challenges which I need to help him overcome slowly...

But you also find that many first borns turn out to have great leadership qualities, because they’re go getters and know how to get needs met. So the idea is to fine tune that quality into something constructive and get your daughters to appreciate each other’s qualities and work together and communicate to bring out the best in each other and bring to each other’s attention when things aren’t as they should be.

Try not to demonise the person or the behaviour..

@Techway my daughter is being assessed for what was considered HF ASD. She was referred due to other issues - refusing to use toilets - which has become an issue regarding support at school. I’m not convinced she would have been referred otherwise as she has no learning disability and behaves appropriately at school. She’s not a high flier but more a middle band but as she’s got older her traits have got more obvious. I mentioned to the clinic about whether we would have been bypassed had it not been for the toilet issue and they said it may have or she may have some form of crisis at high school or later on which warrants investigation. At the time assessments were started we didn’t have many behaviour issues at home but they are really quite serious now. She’s still only 50:50 as to whether she would get a diagnosis though. Oh and she wasn’t referred for ASD, she was referred to try and Unpick her refusal to use toilets and as the various specialists Un picked things the ASD started to become the focus. I work with ASD children but those with the more classics symptoms such as being non verbal with difficult behaviour. I hadn’t really thought about it until I looked more into other types of ASD and I now fully agree this is the issue but whether we get a diagnosis is another thing.

For others, this came up on my fb the other day and is worth a read as explains The spectrum really well.
theaspergian.com/2019/05/04/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/

Havent read the ft but I'd be more inclined to encourage your youngest to stop being a pushover OP. Otherwise she is going to find life much harder than your eldest will. She needs to cause arguments over things and stand her ground otherwise she will always be walked over

I couldn't agree more.

Don’t label your child. 9 is 16 years off brain maturity, your child can and will change.

Just chat through situations as they come up. Talk about empathy, talk about good behaviour and give examples. Practice social skills, they don’t come naturally to everyone. Also get your child involved with groups, my so loved “Warhammer” and this helped him get friends.

Never call your child “selfish”. I was called this through my childhood. I put up with an abusive man because I assumed I “deserved” the awful treatment and if I did anything else I was living up to my name.

Please, stop perpetuating the lie that everyone is one the spectrum. Its both offensive and untrue.

Actually, "on the spectrum" is a metaphor not a diagnosis, and nobody has exclusive rights to say what it means. Yes, there is a spectrum of people who have autism, and that is often what people mean by "on the spectrum".

But there is also a spectrum of people who are somewhere between NT and ASC. People who are told they "have traits", perhaps one or two very strong traits, but don't get a diagnosis. Or people (like me!) who usually score somewhere in the middle on screening, neither definitely NT nor very likely ASC. And some cliniicians do treat the diagnosis like a ticklist with a clear boundary, one more tick and you get an ASC diagnosis, one less and you don't, so there are people with a diagnosis who are only one tick from other people without.

So if the OP thinks her DD might have some ASC traits, but not enough or strongly enough to need or qualify for a diagnosis, then that is a reasonable position to take. And "somewhere on the spectrum" is a reasonable way to express that position.

My 2 sons are grown up now but my eldest has always been mean and selfish and my youngest son very generous and thoughtful. They have been brought up the same. My heart used to ache when I saw eldest son lose his friends as he was unkind or indifferent to them whilst younger son is popular with loads of friends. He is kind to his brother too he often asks if his older brother wants to go out with him and his friends to cinema etc. When they were growing up we introduced taking in turns to pick for sibling e.g. 2 cakes elder son chose cake for younger son. We noticed he always picked the best whether for him or for brother. It was like he was on autopilot.

@celticprincess thanks for posting that link, fantastic article, well worth a read whether it's relevant in your personal life or not.

And some cliniicians do treat the diagnosis like a ticklist with a clear boundary, one more tick and you get an ASC diagnosis, one less and you don't, so there are people with a diagnosis who are only one tick from other people without.

Autism is diagnosed when there's a pattern of behaviours that fulfill the criteria under the triad of impairments, it's not about one tick, more or less. If you don't fit the pattern of impairments described by the triad of impairments you aren't autistic.

But there is also a spectrum of people who are somewhere between NT and ASC. People who are told they "have traits", perhaps one or two very strong traits, but don't get a diagnosis.

Having one or two traits doesn't make you autistic though, see my point above, if you don't have impairments in all three areas of the triad you aren't autistic, no matter how "strong" one of those traits may be. And there is a diagnosis for people who have some difficulties but don't fulfill the criteria for autism, it's called social communication disorder.

There ie no halfway house of people somewhere between NT and autistic. They don't have a "spectrum" for God's sake, AUTISTIC people are on the AUTISTIC Spectrum. No-one else.

And "somewhere on the spectrum" is a reasonable way to express that position.

No, it's not. And that isn't what the OP said or meant anyway. She pulled out the usual "we're all somewhere on the spectrum" crap. Which is untrue, because only autistic people are on the autistic spectrum.
Nor is it acceptable for someone to describe their child as being somewhere on the spectrum when they don't have a diagnosis. Besides "somewhere on the spectrum" is not a great expression to use anyway, since it perpetuates the myth that the spectrum is some kind of line that all autistic people are located on.

Please, stop perpetuating the lie that everyone is one the spectrum. Its both offensive and untrue.

If you have autism, you have a lifelong pervasive developmental disorder which limits and impairs your everyday functioning, in multiple ways, to the point that you are considered to have a disability.

If you're on a spectrum between NT and ASC, you aren't on the autism spectrum. You might be on any of a myriad other spectra, of course.

We're all on the spectrum is usually used either to dismiss or diminish the difficulties someone with autism is facing or to justify not referring someone who shows traits of autism for a neurodevelomental assessment by experts.

I think that your dd1 sounds normal and your dd2 is too passive and in danger of being taken advantage of. There are conflict-avoiding women on MN who put up with terrible behaviour from other adults yet they say that they could never bring it up with them. Having siblings is actually a good way to learn about conflict resolution imo. Personally I can't believe that dd2 would give up the iPad time, bigger cake etc. I thought they were pretty much universal arguments that all siblings had. In my house one child cuts the cake and the other chooses first slice. The cutter is incentivised to be fair.