Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

I used to nanny for a four year old boy who would always put himself first.When I watched his mother she enabled this behaviour.she would buy him a cake to share but tell him to decide how much his brother could have which was tiny.He felt important,superier.I never allowed this..He was unpopular at school and was sometimes bullied.Childdren are all different but I agree it is hard to like personality traits like this

I'm only hearing a story with little detail, but this sounds exactly like someone I know who has aspergers syndrome. This is now called 'high functioning autism'. I may be completely wrong but just in case it's something you've never thought of before, as it's not something good parenting can change.

Signs of autism in older children include:
not seeming to understand what others are thinking or feeling
finding it hard to say how they feel
liking a strict daily routine and getting very upset if it changes
having a very keen interest in certain subjects or activities
getting very upset if you ask them to do something
finding it hard to make friends or preferring to be on their own
taking things very literally – for example, they may not understand phrases like "break a leg"

You pull her up on it, every time.
You treat them both as individuals.

You say that you feel more protective of her than your younger daughter and love her fiercely = that might be why she is like this and the younger one avoids confrontation, as she might have less self esteem and feel like she cannot win. If she does not register a hurt child, she might be on the scale.

Some people are just like that. Are slightly blinkered to the world around them, don't have a lot of empathy, etc. She'll get better as she gets older but in the meantime maybe look for books with empathetic characters, watch films that show people being kind and helping others, maybe get her involved in a local group (Brownies, etc.) where she can take part helping out with charitable events.

And also sounds like you need to build up the self confidence/self esteem of your younger daughter so get her involved in activities and events where she can shine and show her skills, etc.

As for taking the biggest piece of cake, simple solution - get her to cut it and her sister to choose the first slice!

Every child is different, I would embrace that fact and praise her when she did share or did something you didn't expect her to do.

Other than the lack of empathy stuff, she doesn’t have any of those other symptoms. She’s not autistic. From the sounds of it, this trait is very common in children which is comforting. The jury is out in how to deal (or indeee whether there's anything wrong with being like this) but I stick to my view that this should be worked on just as much as academia/sport/other aspects of development. This thread has been very helpful in highlighting how our approach can be improved, and extended to both girls.

It is a tricky one, because it is also on yur youngest daughter. She needs to say "This is what I want". I don't think you can blame a 9 year old for being selfish when the other person hasn't told them that they would like a go too.

aspergers syndrome. This is now called 'high functioning autism'. I

Aspergers and HFA are different.

‘I love them entirely equally. I just understand one better’.

I think this said it all in one of your earlier posts for me. Inherently you are drawn towards your younger child because you can relate to her. It’s not a terrible thing, parents do it all the time (but pretend they don’t because that’s the right thing to do). Yes, she might prefer to do things that benefit herself but don’t all kids do that?
I think it’s a shame that you’ve already labelled your children at this point in their lives.
It happened with myself and my sister (not a related issue, no selfishness here but to do with educational abilities and accountability ultimately) but it has been a constant thread in how myself and my sister treat our parents and how we treat and acknowledge each other.

If you continue in a cycle of one is better behaved or one has better empathy etc than another they will pick up on this and it will strain relationships as you and they get older.

I’m not saying this to be harsh or judgmental but I’ve seen it (and continue to see it now). I wouldn’t wish it on you or your daughters

Autism is very hard to diagnose in females because they do not present "typically" like males. They can mask it and copy others to fit in. So while you may Google Autism and read the stereotypical signs, those are 99% of the time written about stereotypical young males with autism. I was 31 when I was finally diagnosed, and lots of women my age are being diagnosed now because we masked our difficulties and hid under the radar.

They don't call Asperger's, Asperger's anymore. They also don't say high functioning autism. Everyone is "On the autistic spectrum".

I’m sidestepping the autistic stuff because i think this is over diagnosed on mumsnet. Internet diagnosed can be dangerous.

Nothing is diagnosed on MN.That's not possible. Diagnoses of neurodevelopmental disorders are generally made by panels of experts using well defined diagnostic criteria.

Suggestions that someone may look in particular directions when trying to work out how to help their children is perfectly appropriate and these suggestions are usually carefully worded by posters on MN and fall amongst a raft of other suggestions. It's not dangerous at all.

She’ll grow out of it tbh i don’t even think she sounds bad

Have a chat with her teachers about her emotional and social skills.

She may be on the autistic spectrum

Might it be time to acknowledge their different personalities? My DSis and I are completely different. She'd say i was clever, but solitary (and have achieved by being so). I'd say she was emotionally better pitched and calibrated than me, and her career soared on that basis. She has more friends, but I don't really mind, because I am happier without being too involved. We are both over 60 now, and very close, but still poles apart on our intellectual/emotional response to situations. She manages people far better than I ever will.

Your eldest will do well in life, already adopted the "entitlement" philosophy seen in so many today.

wheredidigowrongggggg - what you have not described is a genuinely selfish dd who will grab things off her little sister and never let her have nice things. Yes, she naturally gravitates towards what she wants and doesn't always think it might be nice for someone else to get a look in, but knowing when to hold back or reach out is a level of subtlety that definitely can be coaxed out of someone over time, as it is learned behaviour for most people... And in all honesty, I find people who always insist someone else get the biggest slice of cake vastly irritating, as they take away the opportunity for anyone else to be selfless even if they wanted to be and create situations where the only way to get around their obnoxious selflessness is for nobody to take the slice of cake they want and for the nicest bit of cake to be left uneaten, because nobody wanted to be the selfish person who ate the last bit of cake!

You can't change people. What will be will be.

Walkaround is my sort of people!

Ssd, on that we completely disagree. It is our job as parents to guide, to model, to coach, to help our kids become functioning adults in society. What will be will be is lazy parenting.

I've not read the replies but I understand how you feel. My 4 year old is very selfish. To be fair it's still possibly her age. But she is really rude when others kids are with us. Possesive over me and goes mad if I help other children. Yet she goes over to their mums. I often feel really really sad about how she reacts as I have always taught her please and thank you. I've always told her to give things back if she snatches etc.

I am trying to accept and come to terms with my daughter not being more kind, sharing, loving and thoughtful. But she also does not hurt others and has never hit another child etc. I know she just has aniexty around me and socialising.

I guess my point is that you have raised them the same and it is just who she is. Whilst it may feel selfish and embarrassing at least she won't always let others push ahead of her and take everything. I have always been kind like your younger child. I remember as a little 5 year old at my sisters wedding this little boy went up to the table with me as we heard they had mini rolls, there was one left and I told him to have it. I still remember feeling embarrassed when we went back over to the table of kids and saying there wasn't one for me. I think Its important to be kind and share but it's also important to put yourself first sometimes.

I understand where you are coming from. I'm not sure what you can do other than keep leading her by your example xx

@Wheredidigowrongggggg agree that what will be will be is lazy parenting in some circumstances but we need to be fully aware of how we are ‘labelling’ our children. Which I think you are doing

Maybe your eldest has autism. They don't have great social skills. They aren't selfish. Or maybe she is a normal child - they are naturally quite selfish.

Wheredidigowrongggggg - please also remember your dd is only 9. I think it is very unfair for your dh to label her as worse than he ever was in this regard. I am quite certain your dh has a very hazy memory of how self-centred his behaviour actually was at 9 and is viewing it all through adult eyes.

It is tricky that your other daughter is totally the opposite. Highlights traits in the oldest.

Also your childhood experience probably has impacted how you see situations.

Not a good thing to do but how is she compared to other children. Do you get feedback from others that would make you think there is an issue?

From what you have said she does not know she should share or comfort a child. This is different to knowing she should and not doing it.

I suppose it is the same if a child is not very good at sport. Can only encourage them to try their best. Some are never going to be athletes.

May be there are other examples. To be fair I don’t think I would automatically share at nine if my sister seem happy to do something else.

In some ways I am a naturally selfish person. However I take into consideration how I am expected to behave. On the other hand I often go above and beyond. So I don’t think it is clear cut.