Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

I feel sorry for your ds. Why does she have to be like you or your younger ds? Not everyone has empathy. We all have different skills. What is she good at? Not every female has to carry the burden of constantly watching out for everyone’s happiness. Help her be kind. Respond when requested. If she were a boy, this would be considered normal behaviour.

Teach her (them) the concept of manners, not inherent behaviour.
Or look at their horoscopes, the little one could be Pisces or cancer, yeilding, caring gentle. The eldest might be something stronger and more dominant. Neither is wrong, you may just be drawn to the one like you

If your youngest is indecisive it will make the oldest seem bossy or selfish.

People who don’t know my brother and I think I boss him about. It is just he can be indecisive and can sometimes want to please others. I try asking/guessing what he wants.

Or look at their horoscopes, the little one could be Pisces or cancer, yeilding, caring gentle. The eldest might be something stronger and more dominant.
You can’t be serious?

This is a really interesting thread as it's something I am bothered about too, that my children aren't "nicer" people. In the situation you describe none of the three of them would ever share their ipads in a million years, it would be tough luck, yours is dead. They would also fight to the death over the biggest piece of cake etc. I have definitely lectured them in the past about how disappointing their behaviour is. They are all the same so I should probably feel worse than you! I think however they would share with a friend, just not their siblings!

Wheredidigowrongggggg, you don't know me or my kids. Lazy parenting has never happened in this house. My kids are grown men, independent, decent, hard working uni students. And both completely different and unique. And both have traits that I wish were different. As I have myself. But I have always recognised their individuality and respected this. I have obviously taught them both well, going by the people they are now. I don't believe in trying to change the fundamental people they are. I trust them both completely.

Your dds are different and that's just how they are. Teaching them both to be decent human beings is the only thing to do. Trying to make them more like the other one isn't fair. It sounds like you want the eldest to be more like the youngest. Do you see something in her that triggers something in you, from the past?
They both sound normal girls to me. Respect this and allow them to grow as they are meant to. Calling this lazy parenting, is lazy to me.

Psychology via astrology................ only on MN.

And people wonder why I hang out here...? I love the occasional sheer daftness.

You could have started a thread saying 'How can I teach my youngest to be less wishy washy and doormattish?' but that wouldn't be very nice. Same way as saying your eldest is naturally selfish isn't nice. Obviously you see selfishness as worse than laid back. That's your problem, not your daughters. She'll pick up on your disapproval soon enough.

has she been assessed for being in the autistic spectrum? As it could be that this is the case and hence she will tend towards these types of behaviours?

@Wheredidigowrongggggg my parents didn't think I was autistic either!! Like a pp says, most of the info available online is about autistic boys.

No one picked up on my autism as a child, not doctors, not my parents, not my teachers. I read a LOT and suspected it myself and went about getting the diagnosis myself as a young adult.

It's no one's fault but you have people telling you on this thread that it is a possibility, through personal experience. I think you are doing her a disservice by not pursuing this, even just to rule it out. Unless you are a doctor, you cannot just say that she is 'not autistic'.

I don't think shes being intentionally selfish , My son has ADHD and recently diagnosed with autism . He struggles with interpreting what peoples intentions/feelings are and misses signals. He isn't intentionally doing this , it just happens.
You said she has problems understanding feelings and maybe thats what needs to be worked on . My son is now 20 and still doesnt understand these cues

i agree with autumndreaming , please try to at least look at the possibility of autistic spectrum as her behaviour sounds typical of it xx

Oh where to start ...
Summary;
Children are not naturally selfish they are how you raise them
Perhaps she is on the autism spectrum

@Oakmaiden Before the DSM5 was introduced Asperger's was the term for high functioning autism. Now neither are used. So they are the same thing. They all now have ASD. HFA isn't a medical diagnosis term. People previously diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome are referred to as being on the higher functioning end of the autism spectrum. Hence high functioning autism. It's an easy way to explain it for people who don't know anything about ASD.

I'm naturally quite selfish because if you don't put yourself first, who will? I was sort of raised like that though ("it's a dog-eat-dog world"). I'm very empathetic and do care a lot about injustice, but things like getting the best seat - clearly that wouldn't upset people like you because you'd never take it anyway. Someone has to.

I think your second daughter is in danger of being walked over, especially in relationships. My partner used to be in an abusive relationship because it never occurred to himself to put himself first, or that his needs were important too. He really suffered for it and I'd be careful not to set my kids up for that.

Reminds me of one of mine. A relevant professional suggested ASD assessment too. When I said we had considered it may be a possibility, she said you would be surprised how many parents won't accept that as a suggestion.
Mine is also flying at school, and has friends by the way.

This is a really interesting thread as it's something I am bothered about too, that my children aren't "nicer" people. In the situation you describe none of the three of them would ever share their ipads in a million years, it would be tough luck, yours is dead. They would also fight to the death over the biggest piece of cake etc. I have definitely lectured them in the past about how disappointing their behaviour is. They are all the same so I should probably feel worse than you! I think however they would share with a friend, just not their siblings

^ this a million times

My dd is a right demon towards her brother when she feels she’s being left out and wants attention. Simple as.
And I’ve noticed ds hams it up a bit in terms of being extra kind.

I have to be very mindful about how I am towards the dcs because of my childhood.

The OP’s kids are still young, only half way through childhood. Plenty of time to learn. OP needs to take some responsibility - she cocked up charging the iPad and should have done something about that eg no screens for either until both charged. Not a big deal really.

She is very young- children mature at different stages- there is no inherent behaviour set at this age! Agree with other oysters- you have labelled them as “good” and “bad” as per your interpretation and perspective. she is not behaving badly. Handing things over as your youngest dies is not always nice- could be seen as weak and not able to stick up for herself - these are not major behavioural issues or concerns - nurture both of their differences without judgement.

I hate to jump on the spectrum bandwagon but she does sound awfully like DD who is now 17 and finally this month getting her diagnosis (fingers crossed)

If for example if she was having lunch with someone and they forgot theirs it wouldn't occur to her to share. This looks like selfishness but it's just outside of her circle of understanding. If the person asked then nowadays she would give them some but 7-8 years ago you would have just got a blank look in return with a flat "No this is my lunch"

DD is more aware of her behaviour nowadays due to us discussing things like always diving in and grabbing the best bit and it doesn't hurt that she has other siblings (another with asd and one just a belligerent small person) to balance her somewhat and challenge her themselves. Though she still doesn't like to share I can see it's from an anxiety issue and she would rather go without than have to negotiate with others for a fair share.

Fyi age 6-10 was fine at school 11 onwards it all came crashing down.
Be kind to her bring her up on things that she does if it's really needed but don't go telling her it's in her nature and therefore she must try harder.

It is our job as parents to guide, to model, to coach, to help our kids become functioning adults in society

Yes it is but part of that is also accepting that people are different and encouraging them to be themselves whilst as you say guide them as to what is appropriate

That and the fact you just have to look at some threads on here to realise that being a people pleaser is not a healthy way to live all of the time. Being selfish and creating healthy boundaries is a necessary personality trait in order to make sure people dont take advantage. Learning when it is appropriate is important and for all of your slights against other people parenting it appears that you are not doing that

Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally

Please don’t say this to her, she’s going to grow up thinking she’s flawed. Imagine her inner voice always telling her she’s selfish.

Don’t ever tell her you think she’s naturally selfish. Just focus on her good points and when she does something you think isn’t nice say ‘it would have been nice if you...’

My 2 children are very similar sounding although the youngest is starting to assert herself more depending on the situation. The iPad thing would have turned into a screaming row or physical situation though and I would have had to get up and confiscate it.

My eldest is also under assessment for ASD. There are lots of traits and this is one of them. Although she wouldn’t just walk past a crying child, she would get annoyed with them for crying as it would annoy her. When her sister was sniffing constantly as she was full of cold she would sit and shout ‘stop sniffing it’s annoying me, mum tell her’. I’d explain that it can’t be helped and that’s she’s unwell. She said ‘her sneezing woke me up and now I’m tired’. That kind of think. Or she will ask for her sister to keep a huge distance as she doesn’t want to catch her germs. She pushes to get to the front door when she’s last out of the car, she shouts to go first at the dentist and hair dresser. She doesn’t like to lose at games. She won’t play a game if she can’t be a specific counter. She often only wants a toy/device if her sister has asked for it. If the younger one has asked for a channel on the telly she wants something else even if it’s something she would watch. Anything to get her own way.

Oh and the comment ‘we’re all on the spectrum’ is really insulting to people with ASD. Same as ‘we are all a little bit OCD’. Seriously we aren’t all a little bit something. These conditions are life limiting and not the same as someone who likes a tidy house or things in a straight line. I’ve lived with someone diagnosed with OCD and it’s extremely difficult.

As someone has pointed out further up the thread, girls with ASD are being left behind and their symptoms not picked up. As a parent though you have a choice as to whether you seek a diagnosis or if it’s not impacting on life then don’t.

Maybe try and minimise opportunities for being selfish. Write down who’s turn it is for something. Establish a rule that if only one iPad is charged then both children should do something different. Even if the younger child was happy to go off and do something else she wasn’t given that choice. Or if it happens again then owe them other child the time later so that the older child can see the consequences of their earlier choice without being told directly. In my situation the older child would kick up a fuss later if the younger child got iPad time later.

@Jodie626 Interesting. My son was diagnosed with Aspergers, but a long time ago (about 15+ years ago). At the time I am aware that HFA was a term used for children with a speech delay but who presented otherwise with the same symptoms as those diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome.

My daughter is currently on the "Autism pathway" (or whatever the local trust call it) and the term HFA was suggested as a possible fit for her - however, this was over a year ago and I notice the change to the ICD was only done at some point last year.

At any rate - the two terms are not interchangeable, even if they are now out of date.

Did she have any traumatic events or birth difficulties/early illnesses etc? Could she be on the autism spectrum?

It’s all very odd - absolute absence of sensitivity coupled with intermittent hypersensitivity.

You've described my 30 year old daughter to a tee. She can be hyper-empathetic one minute, and incredibly hurtful the next. She just doesn't see the latter.

She went (in a professional capacity) on a day's course on autism in girls two years ago. She came home absolutely shaken. "Mum, it was like they were talking about me. Everything they described was me."

I couldn't accept it at all. I came up with all the non-autistic things about her (I worked in the area of ASD too).

But over the next 12 months, I realised that she was right. And now the traits that she (and I) find so hard totally leap out at me and I wonder how on earth I missed it.

I have never ever responded on mumsnet with any suggestion that someone might be autistic. And never intended to. It's an annoying trait of posters here, and usually way off base. But bright girls with friends can easily mask it. Mine did, right up to adulthood. And it would explain how all the efforts you've made to talk to your daughter and influence her thinking have come to naught so far.