Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

Genuinely taking all the comments on board.

I’m sidestepping the autistic stuff because i think this is over diagnosed on mumsnet. Internet diagnosed can be dangerous. This is small facet of her overall incarnation. She isn’t struggling to access anything which a diagnosis of some kind would be helpful for. Trying to label her also undermines those who are genuinely autistic and for whom a diagnosis can be life changing. I appreciate she shares some characteristics but I’m pretty sure thats all it is.

Op I agree with several other posters that the way you are thinking of this with your eldest daughter is potentially damaging to her. Labeling the behavior you describe as selfish and grounding it in her nature is very condemning. While I realize you moderate your language with her, she will absolutely know that this is what you feel and think about her deep down and it will become part of her self-conception.

We all have character traits that we were particularly condemned for and have grown up not to allow in ourselves... and these are often the ones we go on to suppress in our children .... they 'trigger' us in ways other failings don't. (For me, it's whining/being spoilt).... the way you talk about selfishness feels to me like it is triggering for you.... it sounds like you have a relatively extreme lack of permissiveness/judgementalness in this area as a result, which makes it hard for you to empathize/ feel as close to your daughter when you see that trait in her. But really the behavior you describe in your daughter sounds very normal to me. That doesn't mean you don't intervene. But imagine for example it was a different kind of failing (Eg a tendency to overeat it be messy)... would you react in the same way? Or would you feel and deal with it differently?

I also agree selfishness is a trait we particularly discourage in girls, and this may also have been the case for you as a child. It isn't a race to the bottom to suggest recalibration how we define bad/selfish behavior so that it is less gender-biased....

Just thoughts....

Bit of a delicate subject. I don't know if you can, I just maybe think that's part of a personality. You can try praise when she does acts of kindness and encourage her to do little things.

I say this as I have 2 sisters, me and one are very simular, very caring people and we both have DC and my other sister is total opposite of this.

She doesn't buy for our DC, she doesn't like if we visit (last time we did she called my DC "it" and didn't want him in her home, he's 2).. She moved pretty far away and doesn't really talk to us, quite happy to miss family events.

I'd say she doesn't have any time for us in a way? Unless it's something to do with her and her DH. I have no idea why she is like this, she was baby and in a way, spoiled maybe? We were all brought up in the same way and given the same things.

I have no diagnosis for my child so I can’t really treat her like she does
But then this leaves how do you manage it? You can’t paint as the black sheep, people are right on that.

She does things all the time that are incredibly frustrating to manage.

Today for example she said something to me while she was in another room. She wasn’t facing me or near me and I didn’t hear it. She then got really angry and upset when I did something the opposite of what she had said - and wouldn’t believe that I did not hear her. I try to point out that I didn’t hear her, but to her that is irrelevant as she said it! She seems to have no awareness that this is unreasonable, because it feels so personal to her

There is an element of domination in siblings and you need to work on your younger one to be more vocal though

And to those saying spend time and get to know her, I’ve akresdy said that’s what we do. Loads of one on one with each child by each parent. We do appreciate all their various facets, good and bad. I was just asking about this one, which seems to be very common and about which opinion is divided on how to deal. I’m definitely in the camp of teaching these rules/behaviour rather than simply leaving her to become a selfish adult. I realise there is a careful balance to strike.

It's totally normal for 9 year olds to be selfish at times.

Lots of the things you are describing are absolutely normal 9 year old behaviour. And I speak as a child who was like your 8 year old. That was what worked to gain me approval in my dysfunctional family - and it is certainly earning her your approval.

I'd focus on teaching your 8 year old to consider herself a bit more often.

Just a thought here. Could there be any structured "kindness" that took place to practice this behaviour? Eg each week they get to choose a charity to donate £1 to or something? Or with Christmas coming up they get to pick a gift and pick a cause to donate it to? Or one of those schemes where you send a gift and write a letter to someone?
On a daily level would looking after a plant or a small pet (eg goldfish) help with teaching her to think about another's needs?

Needless to say both DD's would need to partake in the above.

Xx

I would say there are many paths in life where a woman with slight sense of entitlement will do very well (think banking, the law, corporate life). Please don’t make her feel bad for the qualities she lacks, don’t set her up for a lifetime of not being good enough . Teach her to make the best of her and of course pick her up where she really crosses the boundaries of selfishness. But not sharing with her sister when she didn’t even ask? I only have sons but it wouldn’t occur to me to suggest they should be so attuned to the needs of others.

OP you sound like a lovely, thoughtful mum, even just from the way you're taking feedback on board from this thread.

Armchair psychology but: I don't think it's a coincidence that you are the younger daughter with the same age gap and experience of an older sister whose selfish behaviour affected you negatively and which you saw your parents ignoring. Behaviour that another mum might see as slightly irritating, something to be grown out of, or maybe not really notice, is pushing all your buttons because it reminds you of the massive injustice you felt as a child. That stuff really stays with us. Like you, I want my kids to grow up to be thoughtful and considerate but, after nearly ten years of therapy, I can see that what I see as considerate is in fact just being a doormat. It's ok to want the biggest piece of cake or the best seat. What you want both your daughters to understand is that they can have it sometimes, but not always. Sometimes you have to give up a bit of extra cake. Sometimes you strike a deal to say you can have the good seat next time, or you get to choose the film.

Could you see your daughters' different personalities as an amazing opportunity for them to educate each other? Prompt some conversations without necessarily trying to direct them in a particular way. Maybe get DD2 to say what she would have liked to happen this morning with the iPad? And take it from there?

@FreiasBathtub I think you've hit the nail on the head - I do probably feel it more than I should and I can see how it might be an overall overreaction . I’ll definitely bear that in mind. Thank you.

How does your daughter react when she does not get the biggest piece of cake or best seat? there is nothing wrong with being assertive and being proactive when looking after her own benefit etc. As long as she is not a bully about it of course. A certain level of assertiveness might even do her well in later life depending on career.

OP - This is absolutely my point. I do not believe people-pleasing is inherently a female quality, either. But I believe it’s socialized into female children more. I believe we encourage women to be people pleasers in a way we don’t encourage men. As a poster said right after your response to me when you said your daughter had given another child a toy at a super early age because that’s the way she’s always been: “She’d never seen sharing before that? Ever?” While you may raise your children with the best of intentions, there’s: the other parent (who has engrained biases they might not always realize), family members, siblings, friends, other children, other parents, TV, other multimedia, advertisements, books, nursery workers (if applicable), school teachers, other authority figures (at school, sports, clubs, bus driver to and from school even), random adult interactions (shop workers, etc). And I’m sure I’m including a very partial list. And all those people are praising your children for certain types of behavior you may or may not agree with AT ALL (i.e. “what a lovely, quiet girl you are”).

I read something on Mumsnet a while ago and it’s stuck with me ever since. I don’t even remember the poster’s question but I think it was whether her husband was selfish for some action. And in one of her comments, she said something like the following, “Of course I always take the smallest serving, or the worst bit of meat, or whatever it is. That’s part of being a mum.” Of course, several commenters were horrified, and so was I. What a fucking life, ALWAYS having the worst of everything! And she thought that’s what love was: the worst of everything. I guess that’s my concern about where people-pleasing leads by the time you’re in your 30s. It’s not just about one large slice of cake.

By all means, work with your one daughter about empathy. But work with your second daughter about standing up for herself. She should have said something when there was only one iPad this morning. In fact, it might even have been better if there was a fight. When someone mentioned you being lucky there wasn’t a fight earlier, you said well, they’re both well-behaved. No, you didn’t have a fight because one child just gave up what they wanted.

You sound like an extremely caring mother who wants to get it “right.” I think it may just involve realizing your daughters need to be slightly more like each other.

Rightbut - thank you. I take all your points. I do realise after this thread and some reflection that my expectations are too high in relation to one girl and perhaps not high enough in relation to the other. I do say to the youngest ‘you don’t always have to be perfect, good, wellbehaved’ and constantly encourage her to please herself. But perhaps in the round of my parenting, this message gets lost.

I do hear what you say about all those influences. I confess I have never ever thought Of it being ingrained with gender bias. But I suppose I can see my youngest capitulation as dangerous in love and lust, and my eldest’s stance being preferable there. I can now see that it’s not just about a piece of cake. Or an iPad.

I will have to look at my approach overall and maybe bite my tongue more one way and exercise it more the other way so that the reaction is from the horses mouth rather than mum’s.

I don’t want to create a mirror image. I love yer strength, get stoicism, her ability not to quail when a much older child tells her to fuck off. I do want her to be kind and thoughtful too, but I definitely don’t want to crush her spirit.

Thank you.

Poor girl

Sounds like me and my son, we are both on the autistic spectrum. We just don't see things outside of our interests unless we are looking and trying or reminded. Both of us come across selfish to others who do not know we are on the spectrum when in reality we just had a lot going on in our own world's.

The older DD that is.

I do say to the youngest ‘you don’t always have to be perfect, good, wellbehaved’ and constantly encourage her to please herself.

Does your older DD hear you say this to the younger one?

No lisa of course not.

I used to get this sort of thing as a child and teenager. My brother is, for whatever combination of reasons, more outgoing, sociable and people-oriented than I am, whereas I'm reserved and cautious. In some situations, that can be construed as unempathetic, as I don't always know what to say or do when someone else is upset and would rather maintain a discreet distance than do something embarrassing to the other person or otherwise stick my foot in it.

I'd always get the "why aren't you as cheerful and kind as your brother?" comments and it just made me resent him and dislike the person doing the comparing.

DD (21) isn't obviously empathetic either. She will always do her best to come up with solutions if someone has a specific problem, even if that solution is just to be a listening ear for a bit. She does need a bit of direction from the other person though as she prefers not to "read" people or second-guess them. She has been described to me as "cold" but she isn't, she just likes to know she is doing the right thing before committing.

I agree with the posters above that explaining things in terms of rules will help your DD more. Make it easier for her to do the right thing rather than setting her up to fail. Cut the cake in equal slices, or alternate who gets to choose first. Let the younger DD have her hour on the pad later once it's charged, or the other one is free. I remember a babysitter we had as children who would always let us choose a sweet from a bag (normally jelly babies) and I can still hear him explaining that being last to choose isn't bad, even if there's less choice, as you still have your jelly baby when everyone else has finished theirs.

I do say to the youngest ‘you don’t always have to be perfect, good, wellbehaved’ and constantly encourage her to please herself.
Do not use those words. There is nothing "imperfect, bad or misbehaving" with standing up for yourself or taking your own interests into account. Being a people pleaser is not the goal (at least I hope).
I doubt you'll get your youngest to not be a pushover if her association with voicing her wants is "not being perfect and good", because of course she wants to be good even if you say it's ok to not be sometimes.

Aurora I am of course paraphrasing. I tailor the comment to the individual circumstance.

Meh - pretty normal really. Kids are ego centric normally and if your dc 2 is more empathetic I’d say that’s almost more abnormal.
It’s bit similar with my two eldest. All you can do is gently try to teach eldest about consideration for others.
But try to avoid being too critical or making dc1 think she is unusually selfish or abnormal.
My dad was very critical and often told me I was selfish or ‘like a steam roller’ nr stopping til I Got what I wanted.
Looking back I feel that i was normal but at the time was made to feel defective in some way. I certainly don’t consider myself selfish now and feel awAre of the needs of others, but I don’t think his approach was helpful and it certainly was detrimental to our relationship

I am wondering if you aren't focusing a bit too much on spotting inherent qualities in your children when you could manage e. g. the cake situation do that one cuts the cake and the other one has the first helping, or have a rule that you have to take the slice closest to you, or something equally simple that means you are not sitting there watching your dd to see if she will be unselfish or not. Find ways of enjoying more of life without making it a character test.

Cory we enjoy life plenty. But we parent actively. And want to create nice human beings.