Can I change a naturally selfish child?

[Wheredidigowrongggggg]

I have two daughters, 8 and 9. My eldest has always been quite insular, she doesn’t have naturally great social skills. She is learning through her mistakes and is showing signs of occasional empathy, but it’s clearly an effort. I have seen her walk right past a hurt, crying child without even seeing them. It’s like it doesn’t register.

My youngest is naturally empathetic. Her nursery reports from pre-talking used say ‘X gave her toy to (spoilt) crying kid who wanted it off her’ - I paraphrase. Natural empathy, naturally kind and thoughtful, very popular. But the polarity is extreme between the girls.

We have 2 family ipads the kids are allowed to use for an hour before we get up. This is a real treat as they don’t have them during the week. This morning one hadn’t been charged. So my eldest sat with the one that worked and my youngest tried to charge the other one while she used it but with little success. Youngest ‘didn’t say’ she wanted to share the working iPad so eldest used it exclusively. Youngest did something else. When we got up we obviously noticed.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally. (Sadly this is a constant refrain)

I had a chat with the youngest about speaking up, pointing out unfairness etc. But she’d rather not argue and would rather do something else then get into an argument over an iPad.

This happens all the time. Biggest piece of cake, going first, best seat - eldest will automatically take it without thinking. This grates on me as I would never do this. Our home life does not model this kind of behaviour either. This is an innate character trait she was born with. How do I teach my eldest to be more thoughtful/kind/nicer to people? Is it even possible? I love her fiercely, and feel more protective of her than I do my youngest. The selfishness is a real fragility that I know will be a burden to her in life. But I hate that there are times when I really don’t like her because she is so naturally selfish. That makes me ache. Can she change? Aibu to want her to change? Not for me, but because usually being kind and thoughtful is the right thing to do?

You have described my oldest 2. My very kind dd is actually very savvy. She'll miss out on things if she thinks ds will get into trouble. Sometimes he does. Sometimes I see her thinking. Keep things fair but dont try and squash your dd's attitude. She'll go far. She'll also pick up on your favoritism regardless of what you say.

You say that 'of course' she doesn't hear you but I bet your older DD is much more aware that you think your younger DD's major flaw is being 'too perfect' than you think. It's really telling language to use, even if you say you wouldn't actually use it with her

Your eldest sounds a lot like my older sister, growing up I think it was natural to assume she acted this way because she was the eldest, the bossy one and the one who got the nice chair, the first pack of sweets, the last chocolate bar in the cupboard etc etc. The difference in my household was she got away with it, nobody ever challenged her. She is 31 now and I know her OH has a very difficult time with her when it comes to compromising on things because she's so used to having life her way. Tbf to her I think adult life has been a bit of an eye opener to her and she does admit to being a very selfish person and actively tries to challenge her behaviours. I think a lot of it is who she is but enabled by what she was able to get away with as a child. It's hard to change the habit of a lifetime. I think you are doing the complete right thing by challenging her behaviour because I know my mother never did nor did my grandparents. Your youngest is lucky to have you, I wish my Mum could have been a little more like you it would have made my childhood a lot nicer. Good luck OP.

Following this with interest as both my boys are horribly selfish; I assure you it's not down to any lack of effort on my part. I can and do judge them for it and try to teach them better manners.

I think you can manage the 'biggest piece of cake, first choice' by making the girls take turns.
This will help DD1 know shes not always first, and DD2 aware that shes entitled as much as her sister.
If I were you, I'd look to manage them both equally as I'd be more worried about the situation resulting in DD2 becoming a doormat, under the guise of kindness and 'doing the right thing'.

biggest piece of cake, first choice
I just remembered, my friend's Mum used this tactic for this specific scenario:
One child (in your case the eldest) cuts the cake, the other child (your youngest) chooses the first piece.

Yes, we pull her up when she goes to take the first bit/turn/whatever, and say ‘why don’t you ask if X wants to choose first?’. In a day where there has been lots of similar events I do ask ‘why do you always get to go first?’ Or similar. To make her think. Once you point it out she gets it, but it doesn’t come naturally. It’s good to hear other stories of people who wish their parents hsf at least tried. I see siblings (not always oldest by any means) getting away with this all the time, with the others sitting by for he quiet life, and think too that they are in for a big shock at some point.

And lisa, both my girls live in a family that celebrates their talents. We praise them liberally in public but tricky conversations are not conducted with a sibling audience. And I am confident that my children would not say I have a favourite. Whilst I ‘get’ one child much more naturally, I genuinely don’t love that child more. And as I know that I don’t ‘get’ one always, I make a deliberate concerted, consistent effort to be fair and demonstrate no partiality. It takes real effort but on that issue i am absolutely confident. Were it any different, my very vocal family would not hesitate to point it out (they love and celebrate both girls, warts and all).

I mean this kindly - don't make everything a "lesson". I've seen a lot of active parenting, and been guilty of it myself, but what actually works best is letting them learn by example.

If you and your DH are kind, empathetic people, ultimately those are the characteristics your children will have in adult life.

One small alarm bell, you say your DD is poor at sport but good at everything else. That's another spectrum flag. And there do seem to be one or two others.

You really need to communicate more clearly with your older DD.

we pull her up when she goes to take the first bit/turn/whatever, and say ‘why don’t you ask if X wants to choose first?’.

Avoid "why don't you". It may just be a verbal habit in your family - my DH's family use "do you want to lay the table" instead of "please lay the table" or "would you lay the table" and I always have to suppress "no, I'd rather not" - but anyway a straightforward "DD1, ask DD2 if she wants to choose" is much clearer (possibly with "it's her turn" addded). And if it's not just a phrase that you always say to everyone, then "why don't you" could come across as quite accusing, a bit like "why didn't you think of this already".

And do you remind DD2 to speak up for herself at all? To say "can I choose now, it's my turn?"

In a day where there has been lots of similar events I do ask ‘why do you always get to go first?’ Or similar.

Don't generalise her behaviour. Avoid "You always" and especially "why do you always" (you and your DH shouldn't say this to each other either! Very bad for communication in your relationship if you do.) Stick to the specific situations in front of you. "Why do you always" will either make DD1 resistant or chip away at her self-esteem, and possibly both. "Remember to give DD2 a turn to choose the game tomorrow" and "well done for offering DD2 the biggest piece of cake today" will do fine.

Where possible, use simple rules of good manners for the sake of both your DDs. "It's good manners to take the nearest piece of cake, not the biggest" "It's good manners to offer the biggest piece to the guest" "It's good manners to let the other person choose" and when that doesn't apply, since sisters aren't the same as guests or strangers or older people, then bring in fairness and taking turns and cut-cut-and-choose. That will teach your DDs how they should expect to be treated by others, not just how they should behave themselves.

Had a conversation with each separately. To eldest : why did you not think to share the iPad that worked? Can you see that your behaviour is like your friend Y who you complain about? How does Y make you feel when she’s thoughtless/says unkind things/won’t share? Why do you do that to your sister? Why do you do that to your sister? Explained she has to try more as it doesn’t come naturally.

That was actually quite unkind. DD1 got an emotional hammering for behaviour which was not a reasonable expectation for age, even if some children would have offered the iPad without being asked. DD1 did not say anything unkind or refuse to share when asked, so she probably wont be able to relate her own behaviour to friend Y in a useful way. And "it doesn't come naturally" is very much labelling her, not the behaviour.

Instead.... give her specific instructions for specific situations, and label them:

"If the iPad breaks again, please offer DD2 a turn for half an hour. That would be a generous thing to do".

Re all the comments about ASC - I have ASC and am one of the most empathetic people I know - to a fault really, a real people pleaser. I am also the youngest daughter.

My sister is NT and behaves/behaved like your older sister, to the power of 100!

I make a deliberate concerted, consistent effort to be fair and demonstrate no partiality. It takes real effort but on that issue i am absolutely confident.

This is a bit tricky. Can you put your hand on your heart and swear that DD1 hears no more critical words from you than DD2? Because that's not how you describe it. It sounds more as if you feel DD1 deserves more criticism so she gets more. Unless there is something esle that DD2 is being repeatedly lectured "doesn't come naturally" to her as well? Children don't measure themselves on an objective scale - my behaviour is worse so I deserve more scoldings from my mother. It may feel much more like, my mother criticises me more so I'm worth less.

Overall, DD1 and DD2 need to hear roughly the same amounts of criticism and the same amounts of praise and get the same amount of non-judgmental attention too. They may get praise and criticism for different things. But if you wouldn't endlessly take DD2 apart for, I don't know, failing to keep her bedroom tidy or whatever other "warts" she may have, then don't take DD1 apart either.

My DM told me over and over again as a child how selfish I was, and how generous younger DB was. She often compared me to my auntie (her SIL) who she disliked. It didn't make me want to share.

I have incredibly low self esteem and have been in some sort of therapy most of my adult life. Meanwhile DB will only do what he wants to do and is comfortable saying no to family. Refuses to take DM on holiday, visits on his terms, etc. Still the golden boy.

I never made any of my children share and they haven't turned into self centred adults.

On an individual level I'm on the selfish side, but I think that the world benefits from different kinds of personalities.

Yes I'd take the biggest slice of cake at every possible opportunity. I also fundraised £2000 with my sister as a child. I studied genocide extensively at university, and not one of us were busy crying and empathising with the HORRIFYING details. We were trying to understand and solve the problem. An empathetic person would have been a bloody nightmare on the course.

I've also seen the bloody havoc people pleasers can cause. Whilst I'm busily and efficiently making everyone happy whilst not emitting a marshmallow glow of kindness, there are people pleasers harassing everyone to be comfortable, wearing themselves out putting themselves last, and all the while being told how nice they are.

I'm the least fluffy nice person I know. I'm also perfectly confident that there's nothing wrong with my personality, and that I bring important things to my loved ones lives (and in spite of always wanting the biggest slice of cake, I have managed to accumulate a large number of friends). There're so many ways to be a good person, and it's a bloody shame to set the bar so low as "always gives up the nicest chair".

(incidentally, my husband always gives me the nicest chair and the biggest slice of cake - luckily he recognises all the other stuff I do for him)

@Novembersbean it's not about birth order it's about personalities. My second DC is far more likely to be the one demanding things than his chilled out elder brother.

Also I think I you can overthink these things 🤷‍♀️

Tbh it sounds like you need to teach your younger daughter to stand up for herself rather change your eldest.

None of what you've mentioned in your OP actually describes her being kind, she just letting other people have their way and not speaking up for what she wants.
That's not being kind that's being a pushover.

@ilovetofu as I said before I am aware it can work differently with different dynamics, but I believe THIS case smacks of the first/second born syndrome.

The fact that in some families it is the other way around does not take away from the fact that in many it is this way around and there are many signs of it in OPs post.

You’re expecting a nine year old to behave like an adult? Learning to be selfless isn’t something that happens until late teens. Get over yourself and stop labelling your kid so unkindly.

I was exactly like you’re youngest as a child. So incredibly mean! I just didn’t really understand how my meanness would hurt other people. My parents weren’t as great as you are in handling it. I think my mum even said to me I was a lost cause ‘a leopard never changes it spots’. Still remember those words decades later.

Anyways now it’s a complete mystery to me how I changed...maybe maturity? But now I gasp at how selfish I used to be. Completely lost that kind of boldness. But most importantly I’m incredibly empathetic now...maybe too much.

So have hope, it may just be because she’s young. But keep teaching her and one day it’ll click!

Maybe there’s more to it but the examples you gave seem pretty normal to me.

I would agree with the alarm bells for ASD. This type of behaviour is classic in girls on the Spectrum. You may be able to help her, but it will always be a struggle. And never compare siblings. They are two different people.

Has DD been tested for autism or such like? As can have similar traits to those mentioned.
I oldest choose when to sit in front on outward or return journey so both get to sit in front. With cake 1 cuts the other takes first choice.

My eldest is kind and empathetic, my youngest is not. Liittle empathy and needs to be coached (unless it comes to animals, absolutely loves them). Youngest is asd though.

Some people (asd or not) are focused on other things, not other people and thier feelings. It just doesn't cross their mind a lot of the time. If she isn't causing harm deliberately then I'd not worry about it.