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Original poster

Trans issue at work

389 replies

NooneToldMeItWasRaining · 10/10/2019 19:04

I work with someone that is a trans activist and while i support their right to identify as they wish, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you should be able
to change your biological sex on your birth certificate or that gender stereotypes define who you are as a person.

I really like this person, but i struggle with their outspoken views e.g. that transwomen should participate in women's sport and to say otherwise is hateful, that some women have penises, that she is a lesbian (they are a transwoman in a relationship with a biological woman) and trying to get us to add pro nouns to our emails.

I haven't said anything and I do like her, but I am struggling with these outspoken views so at odds with my own beliefs (and common sense!). I don't want to add sodding pro nouns to my email!!

Is there any way of politely refuting any of this stuff or do I have to sit and smile and nod along

OP posts:
Walkaround · 11/10/2019 19:14

suggestionsplease1 - what I think is a misconception is the suggestion that people should be allowed to assign whatever gender they want to themselves. That's not scientific at all.

Imvho, if you need to have major surgery and to take hormones daily in order to feel comfortable in your own body, then you are not and never will be exactly what you want to be - medical treatment is imperfect and does not cure your condition, or biology, or whatever you want to call it, it just treats it. You will never, scientifically or socially, be exactly like those people who are more easily classified.

icedgem85 · 11/10/2019 19:16

My comment got deleted by Mumsnet!? What? For suggesting you stay civil at work and don't have to agree with her lifestyle? Wow! This place is nuts. Never had a post deleted before. I've just re-read the guidelines and pretty sure I didn't breach any. Mumsnet really hates trans people, huh!?

KokiriForest · 11/10/2019 19:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HandsOffMyRights · 11/10/2019 19:31

Somebody is definitely trigger happy with deletions on this particular thread.

Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 11/10/2019 19:38

I'll never forget that spectacular backtrack a few weeks ago where they deleted an entire thread before having to admit it was the wrong move and reinstated it.

There's no credibility left in my eyes.

Women forced to accept a man's definition of a female on a site for women to support each other no less! You couldn't make it up Envy

ethelfleda · 11/10/2019 20:10

WTF is going ON MNHQ ???

Dangerfloof · 11/10/2019 20:20

I'm sure they'll have just as much support for their stance than they don't tbh
The numbers dont add up. Going by the millions of mnetters and the supposed 0.6% of the population is trans. That makes roughly 7800 of mnetters are trans and will buy flora et al.
Pushing that to the whole population at 67 million ish so umm 48000 people will buy flora? Maths could be way out here it's not my womanly strong point. Huh they lose a lot of sales.

Charley50 · 11/10/2019 20:22

Anyone seen this in the Guardian today?
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/11/cnn-chris-cuomo-apologizes-for-joke-gender-pronouns-kamala-harris

Mummyoflittledragon · 11/10/2019 20:24

This is one of the few places where this subject can be debated. But MNHQ agreed to moderate to appease trans lobby groups etc. That seems to include calling people by their preferred pronouns for example. Considering that self ID has been kicked into the long grass in the U.K. (at least for the moment), this decision has no legal basis. I get certain terminology has been banned though but again there is no legal basis for any of this, is there?

As I said upthread the talk guidelines are very woolly.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 11/10/2019 20:27

Going by the millions of MNers
That's assuming that all MNers agree with the more transphobic posts though that goes beyond self ID for example.
They don't. Not all regular MNers agree with the undercurrent that presumably Flora must have seen to pull out from advertising.

BadSun · 11/10/2019 20:31

Also... there are not millions of active users.

DeeCeeCherry · 11/10/2019 20:37

What's wrong with saying you don't want to talk about or hear trans issues all the time? In the same way there are probably lots of subjects you wouldn't want to discuss daily?

Not to mention you're at work. It's not the place to be yapping on about personal issues and beliefs.

Not quite the same but I fell out with a Jehovah Witness colleague who would preach whenever I was in earshot, it felt aggressive in the end in 'you Will listen' fashion. It could well reach that stage with you OP in which case nothing less than STFU I'm not your captive audience leave me alone.. Will do.

Dangerfloof · 11/10/2019 20:38

Also... there are not millions of active users
Mumsnet own numbers say iirc 12 million distinct visitors to fwr on a given day/month/4week whatever, that's only fwr. The numbers still make it that if of those 12 million 0.6% were trans .... oh God I'm a bottle of wine in and maths was never my greatest achievement.

BadSun · 11/10/2019 20:39

Mumsnet own numbers say iirc 12 million

Funny that!

smemorata · 11/10/2019 20:44

I have never seen anyone post on here that transwomen shouldn't have rights or shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. The main argument is always that transwomen should of course have human rights - just not as women. If expressing dismay at the mantra "transwomen are women" is all that is needed to be labelled as transphobic then obviously mumsnet is going to be in trouble - most posters here were born female, have grown up as girls and many have had children - all experiences very much shaped by being the female sex (not gender). That doesn't mean we don't emphasize with transwomen. It doesn't mean that we think they aren't oppressed. It just means that they are different to us and have had different experiences to us. This shouldn't be controversial. And in fact it wasn't just a few years ago.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/10/2019 22:03

My comment got deleted by Mumsnet!? What? For suggesting you stay civil at work and don't have to agree with her lifestyle? Wow!

That’s a very disingenuous reimagining of a post in which you essentially called the OP transphobic.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/10/2019 22:04

The OP and anyone else disagreeing with you, to be precise.

treeofwhispers · 11/10/2019 22:13

I genuinely have sympathy for trans people. However there is a very real conflict of interests with regards to women's rights and safe spaces. I don't know how this can be reconciled. A complete redefinition of what it means to be a woman will undoubtedly effect women, though, and nobody seems to have asked women (as a sector of society) how they feel about it.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 11/10/2019 23:46

Icedgem "My comment got deleted by Mumsnet!? What? For suggesting you stay civil at work and don't have to agree with her lifestyle? Wow!"

Onlythetit "That’s a very disingenuous reimagining of a post in which you essentially called the OP transphobic."

Indeed it is. Having that tab still open, I can confirm pp was not hard done by at all.

Because what they actually said included the tired dogwhistle accusation of "transphobic", along with "[if]you want to keep your job then don't be a bigot at work."

woodchuck99 · 12/10/2019 09:12

That's assuming that all MNers agree with the more transphobic posts though that goes beyond self ID for example.

Yes, I very much doubt that most MNers will stop buying Flora as a result of this. For most it won't make any difference.

Ritascornershop · 12/10/2019 20:02

The pronouns thing ... I’m not dead set against using people’s preferred pronouns, but it does feel like a request to participate in a delusion and that makes me uncomfortable. I used to work in a place where more than the statistical norm were trans but clearly not actually the sex they were hoping to be recognized as. I would have to discuss their needs with other staff while they stood there. So to avoid using pronouns it would be “Steve asked if we have got their order in as Steve needs it this week for work Steve has been asked to carry out.” It was exhausting, but either this or join in what my senses disagreed with/risk “misgendering” someone.

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 12/10/2019 20:39

I guess any comment that doesn't devoutly pander to trans rights is likely to be censored, as usual

I've just re-read the guidelines and pretty sure I didn't breach any. Mumsnet really hates trans people, huh!?

I bet MNHQ feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, neither end of the debate is happy

Boshmama · 12/10/2019 20:48

I would just treat her like you would anyone else - hopefully with respect. If she is just talking about things that affect her life then just talk like you would to anyone else. If she says things like 'you should change your biological sex' then you can of course disagree at will (although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has 🙄)

MrsKCastle · 12/10/2019 21:11

(although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has 🙄)

No, I don't think many of us have heard that. What we have often heard is that our sex is irrelevant or even not real.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2019 21:28

If she says things like 'you should change your biological sex' then you can of course disagree at will (although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has

Never once heard that, as MrsK said.