Trans issue at work

[NooneToldMeItWasRaining]

I work with someone that is a trans activist and while i support their right to identify as they wish, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you should be able
to change your biological sex on your birth certificate or that gender stereotypes define who you are as a person.

I really like this person, but i struggle with their outspoken views e.g. that transwomen should participate in women's sport and to say otherwise is hateful, that some women have penises, that she is a lesbian (they are a transwoman in a relationship with a biological woman) and trying to get us to add pro nouns to our emails.

I haven't said anything and I do like her, but I am struggling with these outspoken views so at odds with my own beliefs (and common sense!). I don't want to add sodding pro nouns to my email!!

Is there any way of politely refuting any of this stuff or do I have to sit and smile and nod along

[ScapaFlo]

Jaxhog I know the feeling!

[lynzpynz]

You have to work with this individual so it's not easy to tackle this kind of outspoken behaviour. I don't care whether you identify as a man, woman or tree it is not appropriate for you to force your opinions on others, especially those in a workplace.

It is perfectly normal to expect to be treated with respect and pick your own pronouns depending on your self-defined gender (different to genetic sex determination) in a workplace but NOT to try to force others to define themselves in any way if they don't want to (such as in your emails).

You could raise the issue with HR and ask them to suggest ways to help tackle the outspoken opinions which you don't agree with (eg women in sport as you mentioned), but suspect they'll tell you to handle it as you would any other opinions you disagree with.

If it were me, I'd politely point out you respect their right to believe X but you disagree. Be careful how you phrase things, stick to facts. Healthy debate and discussion is a good thing and you all may learn something. Equally if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine too - say so. You can always say I don't want to get into a debate over this in a work environment.

[Italiangreyhound]

Userabc123 I totally agree with you and thank you for teplying to me.

suggestionspkease I read that article you linked to. Didn't find it very scientific. Just because a scientist says something doesn't make it scientific.

[Jaxhog]

I know (and like) several transgender people who present themselves as women. I know they are transgender because they all told me. I've enjoyed many transvestite performances e.g. ballet etc.

But, over the past couple of years, I've started to question whether the distinction of being a woman is being eroded. Many of my trans friends like to talk about how misunderstood and unsupported they are. A lot. It isn't that I'm not sympathetic, but it is continuous and very one-sided. It also isn't something I can really relate to, as it is quite different from my own experience as a life-long woman. Some even want to represent women's rights and roles in society, despite only being 'out' for a relatively brief time. To tell the truth, I'm starting to feel side-lined. Add to that the relentless media coverage of infiltration into women's sport, safe areas, etc. and I'm starting to feel ever so slightly resentful, and wanting to put up barriers before I lose all sense of my own womanhood.

Now, I don't have a problem with working alongside transgender people and calling them 'she', if that's what makes them happy. But please can we just get on with work and keep chat to the light and superficial, as we do with everyone else. And if we do get into deeper discussion, I expect the same respect for my opinion as for theirs.

There is nothing worse than people who demand tolerance while offering none in return.

[Ereshkigal]

why does it need to be scientific?

yes, let's let everyone just make up their own truth and reality according to what they feel. That will go well!

Can I be World Dictator?

[Ereshkigal]

(and out of interest did you happen to read the link I posted about xx / xy interpretation of sex chromosomes as being a commonly held, but overly simplistic explanation for sex determination?)

Out of interest, do you understand why disorders of sex development are not relevant to trans issues and don't refute that there are only two sexes?

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

From User's Times link:

“I hoped to have more female friends but the opposite happened. I thought, ‘Ladies who lunch, go on holiday, have friends around for coffee,’ but it just didn’t happen.”

And talking on removing "Victoria" - "even the pink sponges and flannels."

• reducing womanhood to "ladies who lunch" and pink sponges

This... caricature of what men think being a woman is, is grossly offensive. No wonder women are angry, and rightly so.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Agreed it’s a bomb waiting to go off.

This is an article in the BMJ - starts pg 12 - citing that once children are given puberty blockers, contrary to the assertions that this gives children time to think, it overwhelmingly makes children more likely to take cross sex hormones and transition. Once this point is reached, children will quickly pass the window of natural puberty. No puberty = infertility. www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/1014519?path=/bmj/367/8216/This_Week.full.pdf

[Walkaround]

suggestionspkease1 - yes, I read the article you linked. That is exactly why I posted what I did. I do not believe the argument that sex characteristics are not as simple as xx or xy chromosomes justifies the argument that you can assign any gender you want to yourself and thereby claim all the rights of someone of that sex or gender. You cannot throw science completely out of the window. So whilst I have no problem calling a transgender woman "she", and treating her in my daily life as another woman, I do not respect the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports, for example. And I certainly do not respect the right of men to say that they actually are women and that everyone should have to specify what gender they have opted to be, and that the gender they have opted to be should confer on them the right to enter all the safe spaces of that gender, just on their say so.

In other words, I feel like the OP - she likes and respects her work colleague as a human being but strongly disagrees with her view that everyone should have to have a stereotype (or, caricature) in their own mind of what the male or female gender represents and then choose which stereotype they are. It seems to me this is just a way of hemming people in, not liberating them - a way of saying you can no longer be happy to be any type of woman or man you want to be, you have to consider what gender you fit best, thus confining genders to hideous stereotypes or caricatures, rather than letting people be free to behave however they feel comfortable. It's a horrible trap, not a liberation. I am a woman, I am female, and I do not appreciate the societally created stereotypes of womanhood around me, which I think telling everyone they should have to consider which gender they want to identify as is actually reinforcing, not the opposite.

[Userabc123]

Read this today also. Genuinely believe this is a bomb waiting to go off and it terrifies me that children are being told this stuff is fact

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-reassignment-im-man-enough-to-admit-that-it-was-a-mistake-g2nn79j9j?shareToken=36344b9975b97432517f1ca4cf4d2a2b&wgu=270525_54264_15709509755111_4f3ebf910f&wgexpiry=1578726975&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

[Userabc123]

italian op here. i name changed as I panicked this thread could be identifying (posted part way through the thread to say thanks for the advice).

It has been helpful, though i am disappointed to be accused of bigotry by some as I was really careful to try and explain it properly.

Yes, I do like her and am fine with her presenting herself as female and always have and would use her preferred name and pronouns. However, i won't be adding pronouns to my email and I don't believe you can change sex or that 'transwomen are women' or that she is a lesbian. I think on the whole i will stay silent on these issues and if it crosses my personal boundaries too much to sit and nod along (e.g the sports issue) then I will say something like 'we will have to agree to disagree on that'

[Italiangreyhound]

NooneToldMeItWasRaining do you feel any better prepared to handle the situation with your colleague? For me a key feature is you said that you like her and so you're not coming from any kind of malice. But you do want to get on with your work and not be drawn into conversations about trans issues. Hopefully, things will quieten down and you won't have to face any kind of confrontation, which might be embarrassing and unhelpful (IMHO) for you both.

Good luck.

[suggestionsplease1]

suggestionsplease1 - what I think is a misconception is the suggestion that people should be allowed to assign whatever gender they want to themselves. That's not scientific at all.

Imvho, if you need to have major surgery and to take hormones daily in order to feel comfortable in your own body, then you are not and never will be exactly what you want to be - medical treatment is imperfect and does not cure your condition, or biology, or whatever you want to call it, it just treats it. You will never, scientifically or socially, be exactly like those people who are more easily classified.

@Walkaround, why does it need to be scientific? (and out of interest did you happen to read the link I posted about xx / xy interpretation of sex chromosomes as being a commonly held, but overly simplistic explanation for sex determination?) Yes, medical treatment is imperfect and I would agree, sometimes used wrongly to try to correct what are, more accurately, social ills. But a lot of the time they are getting things as right as they can in complex circumstances - and the effect can be that it saves a life.

None of us are scientifically or socially exactly like each other, and trans surgery will never let a person achieve any perfect sense or experience of what is to be another sex - because there is no uniform experience of man and woman to attempt to recreate, just millions of different versions of each. I am a woman, but I will never know what it is like to experience your experience of being a woman. What surgery can do, in certain circumstances, is help an individual feel closer to their own sense of self in the social world they inhabit.

[HotChocWithCream]

IMO trans rights activists are keen to paint a picture of GC women being discriminatory and overall nasty pieces of work.

However, in my own personal experience (and from reading online forums) GC women literally could not give a damn if men/women want to dress up and live their lives as the opposite sex they were born as. They are more than willing to live and let live and get on with their own lives.

However, they do take issue (and rightly so IMO) with the ridiculous idea that sex can be changed and that trans women are indeed women and, subsequently, have women’s rights. This is dangerous and inevitably leads to the erosion of women’s rights. Anyone who doubts this just needs to google “Johnathon Yaniv”.

[Ereshkigal]

If she says things like 'you should change your biological sex' then you can of course disagree at will (although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has

Never once heard that, as MrsK said.

[MrsKCastle]

(although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has 🙄)

No, I don't think many of us have heard that. What we have often heard is that our sex is irrelevant or even not real.

[Boshmama]

I would just treat her like you would anyone else - hopefully with respect. If she is just talking about things that affect her life then just talk like you would to anyone else. If she says things like 'you should change your biological sex' then you can of course disagree at will (although I've never heard a trans person try and convince someone to change their sex - but everyone on mumsnet has 🙄)

[RufusthebewiIderedreindeer]

I guess any comment that doesn't devoutly pander to trans rights is likely to be censored, as usual

I've just re-read the guidelines and pretty sure I didn't breach any. Mumsnet really hates trans people, huh!?

I bet MNHQ feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, neither end of the debate is happy

[Ritascornershop]

The pronouns thing ... I’m not dead set against using people’s preferred pronouns, but it does feel like a request to participate in a delusion and that makes me uncomfortable. I used to work in a place where more than the statistical norm were trans but clearly not actually the sex they were hoping to be recognized as. I would have to discuss their needs with other staff while they stood there. So to avoid using pronouns it would be “Steve asked if we have got their order in as Steve needs it this week for work Steve has been asked to carry out.” It was exhausting, but either this or join in what my senses disagreed with/risk “misgendering” someone.

[woodchuck99]

That's assuming that all MNers agree with the more transphobic posts though that goes beyond self ID for example.

Yes, I very much doubt that most MNers will stop buying Flora as a result of this. For most it won't make any difference.

[BuzzShitbagBobbly]

Icedgem "My comment got deleted by Mumsnet!? What? For suggesting you stay civil at work and don't have to agree with her lifestyle? Wow!"

Onlythetit "That’s a very disingenuous reimagining of a post in which you essentially called the OP transphobic."

Indeed it is. Having that tab still open, I can confirm pp was not hard done by at all.

Because what they actually said included the tired dogwhistle accusation of "transphobic", along with "[if]you want to keep your job then don't be a bigot at work."

[treeofwhispers]

I genuinely have sympathy for trans people. However there is a very real conflict of interests with regards to women's rights and safe spaces. I don't know how this can be reconciled. A complete redefinition of what it means to be a woman will undoubtedly effect women, though, and nobody seems to have asked women (as a sector of society) how they feel about it.

[OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg]

The OP and anyone else disagreeing with you, to be precise.

[OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg]

My comment got deleted by Mumsnet!? What? For suggesting you stay civil at work and don't have to agree with her lifestyle? Wow!

That’s a very disingenuous reimagining of a post in which you essentially called the OP transphobic.

[smemorata]

I have never seen anyone post on here that transwomen shouldn't have rights or shouldn't be allowed to express themselves. The main argument is always that transwomen should of course have human rights - just not as women. If expressing dismay at the mantra "transwomen are women" is all that is needed to be labelled as transphobic then obviously mumsnet is going to be in trouble - most posters here were born female, have grown up as girls and many have had children - all experiences very much shaped by being the female sex (not gender). That doesn't mean we don't emphasize with transwomen. It doesn't mean that we think they aren't oppressed. It just means that they are different to us and have had different experiences to us. This shouldn't be controversial. And in fact it wasn't just a few years ago.