Trans issue at work

[NooneToldMeItWasRaining]

I work with someone that is a trans activist and while i support their right to identify as they wish, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you should be able
to change your biological sex on your birth certificate or that gender stereotypes define who you are as a person.

I really like this person, but i struggle with their outspoken views e.g. that transwomen should participate in women's sport and to say otherwise is hateful, that some women have penises, that she is a lesbian (they are a transwoman in a relationship with a biological woman) and trying to get us to add pro nouns to our emails.

I haven't said anything and I do like her, but I am struggling with these outspoken views so at odds with my own beliefs (and common sense!). I don't want to add sodding pro nouns to my email!!

Is there any way of politely refuting any of this stuff or do I have to sit and smile and nod along

The recent posts demonstrate clearly why the OP is right to feel worried. If she doesn't sit there silently being lectured at and instead she responds, there's a chance that she can be framed as being as "bigoted" as a racist or a homophobe.

I am responding to the argument that this is a unique situation and that people can say whatever they like about other topic without being in danger of being disciplined.

I responded to the suggestion of some of the other topics that PPs had said could be contentious in the workplace - politics, religion, Brexit. Having a different opinion about any of those to a colleague, even a senior colleague, would not land me in trouble at work. But disagreeing about trans ideology, having a belief in biology and science and the rights of women to safety, dignity and privacy, no matter how politely and inoffensively (by normal standards) could.

Why would you equate a belief in biological sex being innate and immutable with racism or homophobia? How is an objectively provable scientific truth offensive?

no matter how politely and inoffensively expressed*

If she doesn't sit there silently being lectured at and instead she responds, there's a chance that she can be framed as being as "bigoted" as a racist or a homophobe.

She doesn't need to be "lectured to" .She can just say that she is busy or doesn't want to discuss politics etc and get on with her work.

People are allowed to express the view that they don't personally agree with homosexuality though. Not least because many religious teachings do disagree with it and religious belief is also a protected characteristic.

What you are not allowed to do is discriminate against people who are homosexual.

If the same were applied to trans ideologists there wouldn't be an issue. What is being demanded is more than non-discrimination it is affirmation and capitulation regardless of whether you share the belief.

People are allowed to express the view that they don't personally agree with homosexuality though. Not least because many religious teachings do disagree with it and religious belief is also a protected characteristic.

You would probably be in trouble where I work if you told a homosexual collegue that you disagreed with homosexuality actually. Religious belief is not a get out.

It's wearisome compelled speech.

You would probably be in trouble where I work if you told a homosexual collegue that you disagreed with homosexuality actually. Religious belief is not a get out.

If the religious person is constantly bringing it up, telling them they'll burn in hell, making snide comments and behaving like a bully sure, but.......

If a homosexual colleague was demanding a religious colleague visibly support homosexuality via an e-mail signature and harped on about this every other day then your employer would be on very shaky ground if the religious colleague calmly said, 'no, that is against my personal beliefs'. Which would be the equivalent situation to the OP's.

Please note, I have never in my life seen any homosexual people behave in such a manner.

I know that MN has this conviction that trans women are a massive political threat to all human society like no other identity group are or ever have been
This is not true at all. Every single time it comes up everyone says "dress as you want, call yourself what you want, Express yourself any way you please"
It's not about trans ( I know we keep repeating this) it's about self Id when literally any man with good or bad intentions can I'd as a woman by saying 'I Id as a woman' and gain entry to any small thing women have. Let's face it we dont have much.

If a homosexual colleague was demanding a religious colleague visibly support homosexuality via an e-mail signature and harped on about this every other day then your employer would be on very shaky ground if the religious colleague calmly said, 'no, that is against my personal beliefs'. Which would be the equivalent situation to the OP's.

What has religion got to do with it? As far as the equality act is concerned it doesn't matter if the reasons for discriminating are religious or not. As for being asked to visibility support something that would depend on company policy and not an individual. If the company themselves haven't said anything about email signatures OP can just ignore.

How is that "discrimination"? No one is suggesting discrimination, just a polite rejection of a discussion about something you disagree with. You do realise the human rights act protects freedom of thought and expression and religion is also an EA protected characteristic?

You do realise the human rights act protects freedom of thought and expression and religion is also an EA protected characteristic?

You do realise that it doesn't make any difference if your thoughts are due to religion? IT's not a get out with regard to your behaviour towards someone who is gay, transgender etc You can either express your views in the workplace and keep your job or you can't.

You're doing a good job demonstrating OP's point woodchuck99. That if she does anything that can be seen as non-compliance she could be on thin ice.

That's an unhealthy way for workplaces to operate.

You do realise that it doesn't make any difference if your thoughts are due to religion? IT's not a get out with regard to your behaviour towards someone who is gay, transgender etc You can either express your views in the workplace and keep your job or you can't.

I don't think you understand the point. Politely saying that you won't wear a rainbow lanyard or similar because it conflicts with your religion may well be upheld in a court case, given other cases such as the gay cake icing case. Its a clash of rights. Also the OP's situation has nothing to do with homophobia or discrimination against people because of their protected characteristic. If you can't make your argument stand on its own merit maybe it just isn't very good 🤷🏻‍♀️

"Gays are disgusting and unnatural" - homophobic, unacceptable.

"Black people should go back where they came from" - racist, unacceptable.

"I don't believe humans can change sex and I don't feel the need to add pronouns to my email signature" - you'd really put that statement on a par with the others. woodchuck? You can't see how they differ?

You're doing a good job demonstrating OP's point woodchuck99. That if she does anything that can be seen as non-compliance she could be on thin ice.

The kind of person that thinks it's appropriate to bully people in the workplace because you know they won't feel able to answer back.

Why would you equate a belief in biological sex being innate and immutable with racism or homophobia? How is an objectively provable scientific truth offensive?

The only thing is it's not objectively provable scientific truth though, is it?

Are you saying breasts and a womb make you a woman? Because you would probably agree that the physical removal of both for medical purposes does not make that woman any less of a woman. It certainly does not turn her into a man, surely?

OK, so if you're agreed that external physical parts do not inherently define what sex you are, what else are we looking at? Well we could look at the brain structural differences and activation patterns and as we know, transgender brains are more similar to their identified gender than their born gender:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

What if brain structure and activation patterns is a more reliable indicator of likely gender than external physical appearance? (I'm not saying it is, but it's an interesting question.)

Gender identity is a complex mix of chromosomal, hormonal, biological and environmental influences. I don't know that anyone else is any position to refute how any given individual chooses to identify.

Are you saying breasts and a womb make you a woman? Because you would probably agree that the physical removal of both for medical purposes does not make that woman any less of a woman. It certainly does not turn her into a man, surely?

Are we actually going to go down this road? Do we need to get our bingo cards out yet again?

and as we know, transgender brains are more similar to their identified gender than their born gender:

No we don't. That's pure spin. You can have your faith belief, but people are male or female. A brain in a male body is a male brain. There is no easily recognisable or measurable "lady brain".

Are we actually going to go down this road? Do we need to get our bingo cards out yet again?

It would seem so.

Gender identity is a complex mix of chromosomal, hormonal, biological and environmental influences. I don't know that anyone else is any position to refute how any given individual chooses to identify

That's lovely and all but women's rights are based on SEX not 'gender identities' which many of us don't even have.

Sex is an objective, measurable, immutable characteristic that bog standard male people do not share with women regardless of their 'gender identities' or lack thereof.

Are you saying breasts and a womb make you a woman?

No. Straw man. The fact that the overwhelming majority of women have them notwithstanding. When they don't have them it is due to a medical issue. It's not just another "variation". A woman is an adult human female, and female is the sex which can produce large immobile gametes.

I find it it interesting that the trans community is being accused of authoritarianism and totalitarianism....

The science is out there folks, freely available for your perusal.

Many of us have read it thanks. Not convinced.

Gender identity is a complex mix of chromosomal, hormonal, biological and environmental influences.

I'm sure it is. I was talking about biological sex, not gender identity. Two complete separate things. Come back when you've swapped your Y chromosome for an X, or vice versa.