Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Trans issue at work

389 replies

NooneToldMeItWasRaining · 10/10/2019 19:04

I work with someone that is a trans activist and while i support their right to identify as they wish, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you should be able
to change your biological sex on your birth certificate or that gender stereotypes define who you are as a person.

I really like this person, but i struggle with their outspoken views e.g. that transwomen should participate in women's sport and to say otherwise is hateful, that some women have penises, that she is a lesbian (they are a transwoman in a relationship with a biological woman) and trying to get us to add pro nouns to our emails.

I haven't said anything and I do like her, but I am struggling with these outspoken views so at odds with my own beliefs (and common sense!). I don't want to add sodding pro nouns to my email!!

Is there any way of politely refuting any of this stuff or do I have to sit and smile and nod along

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 11/10/2019 13:07

Are you implying that knowing what biological sex is is "authoritarianism and totalitarianism"? Grin

FlyingSquid · 11/10/2019 13:15

Don't be daft, Suggestionsplease.

There are marginally detectable shifts in brain activity that move (some) transwomen (slightly) closer to the mean for (biological) women within a very broad band of results, though they aren't much different from the results for gay men.

In contrast, there are whacking great blindingly obvious physical and genetic differences between men and women, boys and girls. Those differences are the ones used to define the samples of 'transwomen' vs 'ciswomen' (male vs female) in order to measure the damn results in the first place.

I see no sense at all in dividing people according to barely detectable plastic differences in brain function/structure rather than the whacking great blindingly obvious differences in bodies. It's about as useful as taking two wheels off your car and trying to sell it as a bicycle.

Mummyoflittledragon · 11/10/2019 13:15

Suggestionsplease
I can not identify out of who I am and yes, having read a lot of information on trans. Including “The Science”. I am also not convinced.

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 11/10/2019 13:16

The science is out there folks, freely available for your perusal.

You’ve tried showing your so called science and been told it has been debunked.

0/10 You must try harder.

Jaxhog · 11/10/2019 13:16

I think I would say, yes we know you are trans, we support your right to be trans but we don't need to hear about it all the time or change who we are.

Good luck with that! If this doesn't work (and I suspect it won't), either change the subject or do as @stillwerise suggests.

HiJenny35 · 11/10/2019 13:17

Totally agree with her views so I'd be happy and if you started going on about how she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick and would avoid you, so voice your feelings I'm sure lots of people in the office would be pleased you know your views so they could decide if they wanted to speak to a person with your views.

Jaxhog · 11/10/2019 13:17

It's about as useful as taking two wheels off your car and trying to sell it as a bicycle.

Quite.

Aberhonddu · 11/10/2019 13:21

As soon as the folks appear, I know what's on the agenda and it's not the tin man or the cowardly lion so it must be.......

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2019 13:21

and if you started going on about how she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick and would avoid you

Yes, for most people if you started going on about how women can have penises the feeling would be mutual.

Only biological males have penises. HTH

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 11/10/2019 13:23

The science is out there folks, freely available for your perusal.

Ah, the 'educate yourself' phase.

This one always makes me laugh. It never seems to occur to some that it is precisely because people 'educated' themselves that we disagree with trans ideology.

OhWhatACarveUp · 11/10/2019 13:27

I think I'm pretty gender critical myself (I don't believe that trans women are women). But that said, is it really the case that many people have actually lost their jobs for politely or accidentally misgendering anyone. If I had a colleague (called Jane, born John) and insisted everyone referred to them as she/her, I think I would just refer to them as Jane, or or reword my sentences so that I didn't need to use she/her. I don't think I'd really get in any trouble for that.

"Can you give this to Jane? ... Can you arrange a meeting with Jane?"

I see there a few people like Katherine Stock on the real-front line facing abuse from some quite nasty people, but for most people, is this really an issue?

Juells · 11/10/2019 13:31

HiJenny35
I'd be happy and if you started going on about how she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick

🤣 not sure if that's a joke? I'll laugh anyway. 🤣

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/10/2019 13:32

It never seems to occur to some that it is precisely because people 'educated' themselves that we disagree with trans ideology.

Exactly. I started out as a well-meaning trans ally, all "of course I'll call this person by whatever pronoun they want, it costs nothing to be nice". It was because of the dawning realisation that actually there is a cost - to women - that drove me to learn more about the whole issue. And the more I read and learned and watched and the more scientific research I read (peer reviewed and pseudo) and the more I actually stopped to think about what was being said and claimed and demanded, the more I thought "hang on, there is something very wrong here". And that's why I'm now at the point where I say NO. Humans can't change sex, womanhood is not a performance art and women - the cunt-having variety - deserve respect, safety, privacy and dignity. None of this sprang up fully-formed, like a pair of hydra heads. It's precisely as a result of educating myself so please, continue to recommend that women do so.

Juells · 11/10/2019 13:34

It never seems to occur to some that it is precisely because people 'educated' themselves that we disagree with trans ideology.

Martina Navratilova was told to educate herself, issued an apology, went away and educated herself, we all know how that turned out.

You cannot force people to share your delusions.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/10/2019 13:36

I think I would just refer to them as Jane, or or reword my sentences so that I didn't need to use she/her.

It can be surprisingly hard to do that when your brain has become trained/conditioned to recognise them as John/he/him, so slips (especially when you're tired, when you haven't seen them for a while, when you're distracted) are probably more common than you'd imagine.

IsadoraQuagmire · 11/10/2019 13:39

if you started going on about how she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick and would avoid you

You can't tell the difference between male and female and you're calling the OP thick? LOL Grin

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 11/10/2019 13:41

she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick

Wow the concept of human/mammalian biology is going to blow your mind... Grin

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 11/10/2019 13:46

if you started going on about how she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick

O the irony...

Jocasta2018 · 11/10/2019 13:49

I'd be tempted to end an email

I'm Jocasta2018
I'm currently going through the menopause

However I guess Id probably get disciplined for harassment or something by HR or even sacked.

OhWhatACarveUp · 11/10/2019 13:57

It can be surprisingly hard to do that when your brain has become trained/conditioned to recognise them as John/he/him

Of course, I agree. I slipped up with a former colleague who transitioned after I left a previous employer. I'd cc'd a few people, so I started the email with

Dear (Female Name)....

One of my colleagues replied to me (alone), saying by the way, (Female name) is now (Male name).

I didn't make a fuss or even apologies, but when my ex-colleague replied as (Male name), I just carried on ... Dear (Male name). This was a pretty "woke" environment, and I didn't feel I was threatened or could ever end up in trouble over this.

ethelfleda · 11/10/2019 14:04

she can't be a woman as she was born with a penis I'd think you were thick

You can’t change the sex you were born with any more than you can change your race Confused

Longlongsummer · 11/10/2019 14:19

womanhood is not a performance art very eloquent

ethelfleda · 11/10/2019 14:32

I’m fairly new to the trans debate and am trying to learn more all the time. I have an analogy that makes sense to me but I actually wanted to know if this is even a good analogy:

A person is born white.
They make the decision that they’d rather be a person of colour. They try to change their skin colour/hair and anything else about them that they think might help them identify as a POC.
Then they insist on people referring to them as their chosen ethnicity.
Perhaps they start to compete for awards that are only open to POC and perhaps they might win one or two. Who wouldn’t see this as being unfair and/or offensive?

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 11/10/2019 14:38

The dictionary definition of Woman is "adult human female".

It is not possible to change the adult part, it is not possible to change the human part, and it is not possible to change the female part.

Putting on clothes typically worn by females, adopting a name a female would typically have, and requesting to be called using female pronouns does not a woman make. For either sex.

MNHQ
JoanneMumsnet · 11/10/2019 14:40

Just dropping by with a link to our Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights. We've deleted a number of posts which fell outside of these Talk Guidelines, so please take care to post in a way that is civil and constructive.

Many thanks.