How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

Are you ignoring my post about the Lisbon Treaty op ?

Does anyone even know what the Lisbon Treaty means?

Yes, do you? It doesn’t seem like it from your posts.

@ScreamingLadySutch

rudeness galvanises people.

Quite possibly it does. But your comment was incorrect rather than rude. Perhaps you intended it to galvanise people but the danger with that tactic is that people might just take your ignorance at face value.

🤦

No leaver has yet been able to provide me an evidence based list of specific ways in which our country, particularly the average person, will benefit from leaving the EU. Believe me, I would love to find such a thing so I can see a glimmer of light in this clusterfuck

At this point the benefit of leaving the EU is that you will continue to live in a democracy. We can not go back and change people’s votes. They have to mean something for our country not to morph into a polite dictatorship.

@ScreamingLadySutch gammon for lunch?

The EU is NOT a good economic model:

The agenda of harmonisation and convergence (bureaucratically imposed political project) = extensive regulation and interference in business.

The EU has spent its funds badly

The political Project diverts attention from getting the economic fundamentals right

The EU smothered competition between member states.

India and China and USA do not have the Project to contend with! And we don't have to, either!

ScreamigLadySutch - I'm not sure what dim sort of academic you "had," but the last few years of offensiveness and anger should have been enough to teach you that deliberate offence does not cause people to engage with facts at all, it just winds them up and hugely increases the risk of violent disorder. But then, being such a fabulous historian, you'd already know that...

At this point the benefit of leaving the EU is that you will continue to live in a democracy. We can not go back and change people’s votes. They have to mean something for our country not to morph into a polite dictatorship

You don’t understand democracy properly. Democracy is an ever evolving process, it doesn’t begin and end on the basis of one referendum.

@turnthebiglightoff

" ad hominem ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."

• do try harder, dear. You are proving the ignorant point

Yeah, looking forward to China eating us for breakfast. We've tried so hard to let them build our power stations and phone networks, too. America doesn't seem to want us to do that, though. Oh, what a little piggy in the middle! How can we brown nose to everyone? It's just such a conundrum. I'm sure all that will be solved by leaving the EU.

Does your excellent knowledge of history extend to the troubles in Ireland ?

You don’t understand democracy properly. Democracy is an ever evolving process, it doesn’t begin and end on the basis of one referendum.

No it is not evolving. Democracy literally means majority rule. You are repeating crap that is spouted by people who would say anything to remain.

Once democracy has been ignored once, it can be ignored again and again.

I 💖 the EU.

Democracy is not majoritarianism, btw.

I'm very surprised that you think it's Remainers who don't have a clue about the economic considerations - in my experience that's what they're most up in arms about. After all, every reliable economic forecast (including those by our current government of Leavers) tells us that we'll experience a serious recession, possibly a depression, with reduced access to medicine and food, leading to civil unrest and rioting.

But the people who read and understand these forecasts are somehow lacking whereas those who plunge ahead with catchy phrases such as 'will of the people', 'blitz spirit' and 'we won, get over it' are the informed ones? Hmmmm...

I do see some of your point OP, a lot of remainers I know see a vote to remain as keeping things as they are. I don't see that actually, I see an ever creeping progression towards political, financial and military homogeny which wouldn't benefit the UK. I also have professional experience of the European court of Human rights and it isn't positive. On the other hand I am very much in favour of open borders and migration and at present don't see a clear way around the Irish border without jeopardising the GFA. I know highly educated people on both sides of this debate, and certainly don't think all leavers or all remainers are idiots, as usual with social media you are presented with the most vocal though, not the most considered people.

You don’t understand democracy properly. Democracy is an ever evolving process, it doesn’t begin and end on the basis of one referendum

The referendum which still hasn't changed a single thing in terms of us leaving the EU? Can you explain what you mean by your rather vague statement about democracy being an 'ever evolving process?' because from where I'm sitting it sounds like the beginning of an excuse to avoid upholding the results of the referendum. What does 'ever evolving process' mean exactly? That government only uphold the results of a referendum if it goes the way of the government?

I have given TWO factual REFERENCES already, and cited the Greek Finance Minister (would you like that reference as well? He was speaking to the Oxford Union).

Haha! Speaking to the Oxford Union is no guarantee of an independent and well-researched opinion. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you do actually know that and are just trying to impress those you think don't.

@Walkaround - what page are we on? Oh, yes, page 5 already, 112 messages in minutes.

I love empirical evidence. So much better than being dim, don't you think?

Once democracy has been ignored once, it can be ignored again and again

It's not being ignored at the moment

Our Parliamentary representatives are working to find a deal that is good for the country.

Some people think that deal should be put back to the country to see if this is what they want.

In a democracy, our Parliamentary representatives need to work together.

Theresa May didn't get to decide the red lines, She chose them.
Boris Johnson doesn't get to decide the deal.

It should be our elected representatives.

@YeOldeTrout

OK. Assuming I’m wrong and it doesn’t mean that the people of a country vote to direct their government and the majority vote wins...what does it mean?

You DID know, I am sure, that WW1 and WW2 was about German v British economic dominance? I am sure you knew that. (And that BRITAIN, not Germany, started both wars)

What on earth are you talking about?

@screamingladysutch So you are just ignoring facts that you don't know how to answer?

jennymanara That seems to be the case. Op would rather post dictionary definitions, and call posters mentally lazy and dim.