How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

Well boris did try to illegally suspend parliament in the final month run up to the Brexit that we still haven't got a plan for. A country's leader shutting down opportunity to debate and oppose the biggest decision in decades is fairly dictator-like behaviour, isn't it?

And travel to the EU is easier inside the EU than outside of it.

We are less than a month away from Brexit and nobody knows if we will deal, no deal or delay, and I'm wondering why more Brexit supporters aren't furious and downright worried about this. Our country is behind run like a shambles. Is this what we are allegedly so keen to take back??

We had a non-binding and loosely worded referendum that was won by 2%, our PM who led us into the referendum scarpered, it was then held as binding by a PM who campaigned to remain and immediately actioned without a plan in place. 2 1/2 years later we still don't have a plan in place.

Whether you are leave or remain I think the ignorant thing now is to be anything other than furious and highly concerned.

Most concerning of all to me is that much though I have grown to the hate the Tories, I don't think anybody else will make any better job of sorting this shitshow out. We are royally screwed.

@ScreamingLadySutch.

With your knowledge of economics and history you could be just the person I'm looking for to give me an evidence based
and specific list of how things will be better when we leave. How about three things to get started.

It's a Genuine question - as per my previous post I'm really looking for something like this.

@JacquesHammer

The knowledge I’m rattled?

Does it make you feel better to think that?

Being an idiot and misspelling a word is not the same thing. Neither is being an idiot and being grammatically incorrect on occasion.

Let’s have a debate with no mudslinging and point scoring for once eh?

If I were to make sweeping judgements about everyone based on people I come into contact with, I’d assume all leavers were uneducated (haven’t met any in real life with a higher education) and slightly racist.

^this.

The leavers I’ve met we’re surprised that we hadn’t left the EU instantly the day after the referendum, surprised that the value of our currency was affected the day after the referendum, thought that Brexit would stop “coloured people” stealing “our” jobs, surprised that Brexit would affect jobs and that large manufacturing plants might move out of the UK resulting in job losses.

I don’t care about the history, I don’t care about our independence, I care about being a member of the EU, it has benefited mine and my family’s lives immeasurably. My child and at least 7 other people in my immediate family would not have been born without it.

@DontMakeMeShushYou rudeness galvanises people.

When people get angry, they engage. Then you engage, with facts. The best academic I ever had taught me this.

I have already explained the goadiness.

Being an idiot and misspelling a word is not the same thing. Neither is being an idiot and being grammatically incorrect on occasion

Terribly amusing though.

I mean if I was trying to do a “my side are great and the others are all thickos” I’d be a little more clever about it.

Let’s have a debate with no mudslinging and point scoring for once eh?

If the content is too robust for you, you can hide the thread at the top.

Did you wake up thinking this is how you want to spend your morning?

No leaver has yet been able to provide me an evidence based list of specific ways in which our country, particularly the average person, will benefit from leaving the EU. Believe me, I would love to find such a thing so I can see a glimmer of light in this clusterfuck

^^ This with knobs on.

I'm growing old waiting to hear about the benefits.

I honestly think that a huge swathe of Brexiteers imagine that on Nov. 1st, it ill all be sorted (if we got a Deal of course, as anything else will be illegal...)

No. November 1st will just be the start of years, if not decades, of negotiations for every aspect of our lives, that will destabilise our country and reduce our standing in the world.

I think Brexit has shown up the very limited tolerance and empathy that a lot of left wing Remainers would like to pretend they have.

THIS 👏👏👏

I find them the most fascist of all really. Most other people seem happy to live and let live on any and all issues.

Remoaners and these handwringing liberals are the ones I find most intolerant of any view other than their own. And every one else's view is stupid, ignorant, wrong etc.

You DID know, I am sure, that WW1 and WW2 was about German v British economic dominance? I am sure you knew that

If you truly believe that, you are missing out one vital point in your history lesson:
The collapse of the British Empire v Wirtschafts Wunder Deutschland.
.... follow the money & keep your "friends" close and those with money even closer!

Most other people seem happy to live and let live on any and all issues.

Not the ones sending death threats to prominent remain campaigners though eh?

You DID know, I am sure, that WW1 and WW2 was about German v British economic dominance? I am sure you knew that. (And that BRITAIN, not Germany, started both wars)

Without wanting to wade into the current political debate and the no doubt enjoyable mud slinging on both sides, this is a very simplistic and historically ignorant statement.

Lots of good reading out there OP, particularly on the origins of WWI. In an area where there is scant historical consensus, making unequivocal statements of simple blame is a risky endeavour.

I am aware of the history and I agree the history is important. And yes being a member of the EU has ended up encompassing many more things than the original agreement we voted for way back in the 70's.

But we also now have an international peace treaty in NI. An issue that I have personally not heard any leavers adequately address. And you need to understand the history of NI and not just see it as an inconvenient issue that can be pretty much ignored.

You also need to understand parliamentary legislation. Boris Johnson is not a dictator but his action in attempting to prorogate was a very dangerous one and undermined parliamentary democracy - if it had not been overturned by the courts.

Lastly you need to understand how trade deals actually work. Too many leavers seem to see Britain as a very important country that other countries will be falling over themselves to make trade deals that will really benefit britain. They are delusional. Britain is now in a very weak position and we will end up with trade deals worse than we had under the EU.

I am not a great fan of the right or left as a block, there are people on both sides who show a lack of understanding of what is happening. But sorry OP I don't think your post really demonstrate an understanding either. You have picked on one element to support your argument, an element I agree with, whilst ignoring other aspects totally.

"I care about being a member of the EU, it has benefited mine and my family’s lives immeasurably."

Why does this have to involve being subsumed into a larger political body rather than straightforward trade deals?
What are the economic implications for your child?

Do you know the unemployment rates for youth in the peripheral countries of the Eurozone (clear and logical reasons why) - and how they differ from the low unemployment of the UK? And why?

When people get angry, they engage. Then you engage, with facts.

No. Starting a thread labeling all those who voted remain as ignorant, just leads to them being angry at being labelled in this way.

There's no engaging with facts, as no facts have been disputed. You're just making yourself look ignorant as you're labeling millions of people based off of 2 anecdotes.

@ScreamingLadySutch

Do you have any YouTube videos that support your position from more independent sources than Roger Bootle and Peter Hitchens?

Well it's a stretch to be shocked about it I think and do you think it's only remainers are ignorant of the past and the wider political objections to the EU?

But really your post is just a chance to be rude isn't it? If it was to educate then you could have simply referred us to the videos.

Let's keep it simple and focus on one issue - 1) Do you think leaving the EU risks the fragile peace the GFA achieved? 2) If not why not? 3) If yes what is the justification?

even the most ardent Remainer must now concede that to do anything other than leave the EU would be catastrophic for democracy. Amongst my friends and family, there's a 50/50 split (seems that makes me unusual around here) of Leavers/Remainers and they're on the same side these days. Both sides agree that we need to leave the EU and to do anything else and stall it any further would be folly. If anything, my Remain voting friends are now quite pissed off at the dictatorial, unyielding approach of Brussels and wondered why they ever voted to stay in that club in the first place!

ARE you trying to say that 70+ years of European peace, improved social / human protections and a political/ecominoc weight in the world are irrelevent, but our history as an island subject to thousands of year of invasion and subjunctiom means we need to leave Europe?

Or are you saying we need to Be more aware of what is happening. AND we should be really grateful that leavers want to turn us into a third world country to the benefit of boris and his cronies? Becuase that’s better than having to work in a european democracy. Becuase we have seen how boris likes work, CLOSING parliaments at everybody chance.

you are clearly not too good at reading. And, probably a bit mentally lazy as well.

Not once have I insulted you, i've not been rude or aggressive, yet you're now making personal insults.

How mature.

You sound so patronising and up your own arse OP.

You want facts? I've just given you one.

third world country?
Fgs, calm down..

@ScreamingLadySutch Are you going to address my factual points?

Democracy means rule of the majority.

There is no better system to live in than a democracy.

Around the world there are countries ruled by monarchs; aristocracies; communist countries; dictatorships and more. We are so fortunate to have been born into a world where we have a say and direct our government to make decisions based on a majority vote.

I couldn’t care less about Brexit. I do however value democracy.

People will argue that it’s democratic to let the people have a second chance to vote, to allow them to ‘change their mind’, to allow government to make a better decision on our behalf. But, none of that is in fact democracy. Democracy was to take the vote we had and apply what the majority voted for, having stated that was what government would do.

If we do not leave the EU, then democracy is gone. We set a precedent for votes to be overturned if government does not like the outcome. In my mind, that is the real worry. Not economics, ease of travel etc. It is our governments job to ensure Brexit is implemented and that it works.

If the government five years from Brexit want to have another vote (after implementing the first) then that’s fine. But to ignore a majority vote and democratic process is foolish and something we as a country should be united in looking to avoid.