How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

What does 'ever evolving process' mean exactly?

You seriously expect me to believe that you don’t understand that? The wide-eyed faux naïveté doesn’t add anything to what is already a fairly lacklustre debate.

OK. Assuming I’m wrong and it doesn’t mean that the people of a country vote to direct their government and the majority vote wins...what does it mean

As a slight aside, we could live in a better democracy.

A party can have a strong majority with less than half the votes of the country.

I am not sure how fair that is - and there are better voting systems and models of a Parliament available so we have more consensus politics instead of 'winner takes all' - which is a reason we are where we are now.

‘Evolving process’ is an artsy way of saying ‘let’s bend the rules’.

I've watched the YouTube video now. The main part of the critique is problems with the Eurozone model. But hey, we successfully negotiated our way out of that.

Indeed the presenter even provides a balance that not all the probs in Europe are due to the EU.... Cites demographic and country specific policies.

So, the video was a good summary of issues in Europe but I'm still looking for the specifics on how we will be better out.

You seriously expect me to believe that you don’t understand that? The wide-eyed faux naïveté doesn’t add anything to what is already a fairly lacklustre debate

So you can't actually explain what you mean by that deliberately vague comment? Ok then.

‘Evolving process’ is an artsy way of saying ‘let’s bend the rules’

LOL @DBML that's what I figured.

" every reliable economic forecast (including those by our current government of Leavers) tells us that we'll experience a serious recession, possibly a depression, with reduced access to medicine and food, leading to civil unrest and rioting."

Who wrote YellowHammer? You can put it along with the forecasts of Project Fear. What were those? Let me remember:

oh yes! George Osborne told us that house prices would crash, we would enter immediate recession, what else did he say?

Strangely, 'in spite of Brexit' the opposite happened. Always follow the money. There is a REASON why Foreign Direct Investment into UK in the last two years has been more than Germany and France put together.

Its because Britain has signalled they are walking away from over regulation and protectionism! Especially w regard to IT and the 4th industrial revolution. The headlines today was Eu v Facebook.

Come on, guys, this is all so obvious

@chomalungma

Currently there is no better way that wouldn’t be overly complicated. Majority rules (of voting turnout) is fair. The government is then instructed by the people.

Currently there is no better way that wouldn’t be overly complicated. Majority rules (of voting turnout) is fair

Just because something is complicated doesn't mean it should be tried out.

Other countries seem to cope with different voting systems.

One thing he did say is that the European project saps a lot of time and energy from countries in order to keep things going. Time that could be better spent on development / legislation within their own countries.

That did make me smile thinking of how much time and diversion we will be spending detangling ourselves from the EU and patching together trade deals over the next decade.

OP You claim the EU is over regulated. Please can you give a list of which specific regulations you would like to remove and what you would replace them with?

Please also explain how removing some rules and destroying our trade relationship with a market of 500m people, which accounts for 45% of our exports in the anticipation of some ‘good deal’ with countries far away makes any economic sense.

Please also explain why Ireland should consent to the repartition of its country. This is in total contradiction to the wishes of the Irish people, North and South and to the democratic referendums on the Good Friday Agreement. Britain’s vote does not trump Ireland’s vote.

But yeah, bureaucracy, WWII, Germany, whatever

If we do not leave the EU, then democracy is gone. We set a precedent for votes to be overturned if government does not like the outcome

No we have not, anymore than the vote to call that boat BoatyMcboatface was ignored but didn't lead to the collapse of democracy.
Some votes are legally binding, others are not.

Ireland and Denmark both had re runs of their referendums, albeit on a revised question but both countries are still functioning democracies.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of brexit, 3.5 years on is plenty enough time to have another (would nearer 4years by the time any vote took place) this time, legally binding referendum,
After all May called another GE 2 years into her premiership and before she had enacted the tory party manifesto of 2015

When people get angry, they engage. Then you engage, with facts. The best academic I ever had taught me this.

No. When people are angry they engage in an aggressive exchange of words & stop listening to each other.
I'm not sure who your 'best academic' is/was but they are wrong.

@ScreamingLadySutch is there any chance you could address my questions about Ireland? Sorry if I've missed it your answers.

Let's be honest, neither side has covered themselves in glory. There is a disturbing amount of prejudice, intolerance and nastiness on both sides of the Brexit debate and it's only gotten worse since 2016. But you don't seem to understand that declaring all Remainers "shockingly ignorant" based on your own limited experience means you lose any claim whatsoever to the moral high ground. Making sweeping generalisations about whole groups of people because of a couple of negative interactions is the very definition of ignorance, so the hypocrisy in your post is bound to get people's backs up.

He, being the guy in the you tube video. Quick moving thread

@chomalungma

After holding such a big vote and such a big turnout (compared to the norm), swapping democracy for ‘something else’ even something better right now would be insane.

@DBML

No it is not evolving. Democracy literally means majority rule. You are repeating crap that is spouted by people who would say anything to remain.

Once democracy has been ignored once, it can be ignored again and again.

OK. Assuming I’m wrong and it doesn’t mean that the people of a country vote to direct their government and the majority vote wins...what does it mean?

Your dictionary definition of democracy is correct, but how do you square this with the representative democracy in which we actually live where the majority of the electorate NEVER get what they vote for?

The only one shockingly ignorant not to mention downright rude is you, by perpetuating these government - led divisions and infighting that has become just so tiresome. Think what you want but stop trying to rile people up even more, this country doesn't need it

No we have not, anymore than the vote to call that boat BoatyMcboatface was ignored but didn't lead to the collapse of democracy.

Because naming a boat was of equal importance to whether we remain or leave the EU. Silly comparison.

What's ignorant is ignoring every independent projection (and even the governments own) that we will be worse off In Every way imaginable and just ploughing on regardless.

I don't care about the history of it all (other than as you've said post world war 2 cooperation has brought about an age of economic and political stability) I care about the impact this situation we are in has on my standard of living, that of my children and their future.

If I'm ignorant to the benefits of Brexit then pray do educate me

After holding such a big vote and such a big turnout (compared to the norm), swapping democracy for ‘something else’ even something better right now would be insane

I am referring to improving our voting system for elections so it does in fact reflect the will of the people and give those people who feel that their vote is ignored in elections a say.

Most votes in this country don't matter. The only constituencies that do matter are the ones in the 100 or so swing constituencies. I can see why some people don't bother voting. We need to improve our democracy in our normal electoral voting system

Agreed @watersheep

I can't stand intellectual dishonesty. OP posts saying she wants to engage with facts, then ignores every post that actually posts inconvenient facts, and instead launches into a diatribe unsupported by any complex understanding of facts.

And no a parliamentary democracy is not just based on a simple majority will of the people. Our democracy has three strands, parliament, judiciary and house of lords. That is because the majority of the people could vote for things that are against the law. The judiciary are there to stop that.

Sorry but anyone who says democracy simply means a majority of people voted for it does not really understand democracy. The other elements are there because we know that historically the majority of people ignore or are indifferent to the rights of our most vulnerable. A democracy has to protect them too.

@jasjas1973

I politely disagree. Any country that ignores a people’s vote is not a democratic society. You can’t be democratic most of the time. There may come another occasion for those countries where democracy is ignored again. And again.
You are entitled to your opinion though.

I think 3.5 years is pushing it fine to implement a vote. The government need to get it done soon, as 17.4m people are waiting for their vote to mean something.

oh yes! George Osborne told us that house prices would crash, we would enter immediate recession, what else did he say?

Strangely, 'in spite of Brexit' the opposite happened.

We haven't left yet. Come on, OP, this is so obvious.

BTW, have you found any more balanced YouTube videos to persuade us with yet? Or would you like to address my point about the Oxford Union? Or is that too difficult for you. It's fine if it is but don't be afraid to say so.