How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

That was whilst he was in Govt not before, it rightly did for him though.

Perhaps you need to take off your Boris coloured spectacles!

I sometimes wonder what the 'press would make of Abbott or Corbyn if it were now discovered they have several children from different partners and had sex for cash allegations to answer?

In BJ's case, its ignored or described as "colourful" its not, he has behaved appallingly and if all his sexual exploits weren't enough, his ignorant gaff on Narserin cost her an extra 5 years in jail, he is a disgrace.

"I believe this is a hard border.
From Wiki:
"In the context of Brexit, a "hard border" means one where there are limited number of authorised (and physically controlled) crossing points, staffed by customs officers and police, supported in times of tension by military forces"
What would you define this as?

That describes a "hard" border, which in no way resembles the border between Switzerland and other EU countries. Unlike our police, police forces (and even traffic wardens in Italy) are armed.
Since 2008 there have been NO permanent passport controls along the Swiss/German border. There are some customs checks on some roads and some railway lines. That is not a hard border.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Switzerland_border

The same applies to France/Switzerland

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%E2%80%93Switzerland_border

If you WANT to carry on entering Switzerland using the motorway, paying for the vignette and queuing for customs, then please do so, but I prefer the scenic route.

There are some customs checks on some roads and some railway lines. That is not a hard border.

Moving goods from Switzerland into the EU requires paperwork and customs clearance and tariff payments as Switzerland is not in the CU. This is a hard border.

Once again, you’re confusing the free movement of people within the Schengen area with a customs border.

From your own wiki links:

Since Switzerland's accession to the Schengen Area in 2008, there have been no permanent passport controls along this border, even if there can be customs controls

"no permanent passport controls"

There are random checks, we also weren't on the motorway, unless I was hallucinating that day.

I am so happy to be Scottish. Some of the ignorance on here demonstrates why the only good to come out of Brexit would be the break up of the UK. The hatred some posters show towards the EU. It would be comical if not so ignorant.

If you read nothing more before Brexit, remember this. In five years time after Brexit you will see a country with the same problem (probably worse) who will you blame then?

I can't wait until Scottish independence.

If you read nothing more before Brexit, remember this. In five years time after Brexit you will see a country with the same problem (probably worse) who will you blame then?

It's will all be the EU's fault of course. The blaming and hate has already started. Madness!

hadenough I am so happy to be Scottish. Some of the ignorance on here demonstrates why the only good to come out of Brexit would be the break up of the UK. The hatred some posters show towards the EU. It would be comical if not so ignorant.

If I never meet another SNP supporter with that glazed look in their eyes who tell me that Scotland will "just join" the EU because it "has so much to offer" and who doesn't understand the new applicant state process, it would be great.

If you read nothing more before Brexit, remember this. In five years time after Brexit you will see a country with the same problem (probably worse) who will you blame then?

With the beginning of that comment, I thought you were going to launch into the usual recommended reading of the fansite "Wings Over Scotland". I lived in Scotland at the time of the last independence referendum and the uncertainty made me leave because I wanted to live in a more stable country. I got fed up of fervent disciples to the cause patronisingly telling me that only fan fiction such as Wings (rather than formal sources of law, such as international treaties) could provide the answer to legal problems.

Admittedly, I also moved because I was made redundant because the economy's shite.

Scotland is hardly a bastion of acceptance and tolerance 😐

@QualCheckBot I doubt you're missed. I am not SNP and I do understand the criteria for entering the EU. But you're another great example of the ignorance.

....Or if Jeremy Corbyn had been sacked from a job as a journalist for making up quotes. Or had conspired with a school-friend to have a journalist beaten up. Or had referrred to 'Picanninies with watermelon smiles....'

Et Cetera.

hadenough @QualCheckBot I doubt you're missed. I am not SNP and I do understand the criteria for entering the EU. But you're another great example of the ignorance.

I'm not sure how you could possibly make such a statement, since you do not know me nor my friends or work colleagues. So you are just making statements in order to be vindictive/defensive.

I understand the criteria for joining the EU perfectly, since my job involves explaining it. Even if Scotland were to be offered the accelerated entrance procedure which the Eastern European expansion states were, it would still take 6-8 years, but Scotland would also have to become complaint on its balance of payments deficit and competition law regime (no more minimum alcohol pricing, banning of fur farms and excessive licensing).

Also no more named persons legislation, since its in breach of Right to Family Life. But it wouldn't be offered the accelerated entrance procedure anyway, because that only worked for former communist states who were interested in accepting extensive human rights and political guidance from the EU in order to make them compliant.

So basically it would be 10 - 12 years minimum of an independent Scotland outwith the EU, during which time Scotland would not even be a signatory to the ECHR, never mind the Fundamental Charter. Most likely that it would end up a member of EFTA and tell its population that it was getting the best of both worlds.

But do tell me of the magical EU entrance button that some appear to think exists and describe how it works procedurally?

I can't say I miss the friendly, welcoming attitude to incomers though as displayed in the all so typical insult in your post. Nor do I miss the total lack of Scottish government concern for all those who lost their jobs in the Aberdeen oil industry and who struggled to sell their homes to move elsewhere.

@QualCheckBot I doubt you're missed. I am not SNP and I do understand the criteria for entering the EU. But you're another great example of the ignorance.

I know, I'm so embarrassed for her.

@MockersthefeMANist; would that be the same sainted Jeremy Corbyn who prompted Margaret Hodge to write that extreme racism and anti semitism under Corbynism has been allowed to flourish in the mainstream' and that many Jews have been forced out by the toxic anti semitic culture'.

I'm not sure how any Corbyn supporters have the nerve to criticise anyone, tbh.

Knew it wouldn't take long before someone would blame Corbyn.

Johnsons plan is to increase the national debt to 90% of GDP, wreck manufacturing and destroy the 'pound.

Oh and put uk European relations back to pre war levels.

But still we have people saying "i'd vote leave" yeah we are really heading for a bed of roses :(

I voted stay , and I am positive I am not ignorant

You on the other hand .............

I'm genuinely curious. What are the advantages of either? To be honest, I'm struggling to see the benefit of leaving but at the same time, the leavers seem to think that there's a benefit to leaving. No one has really laid out on paper or put their reputation on the line (other than BJ). It's all been speculation. The way I see it, leaving has the benefit(?) of being sovereign and determining your future on your own. As a country of only 60 million and deeply reliant on the good graces of other European countries I'm skeptical of the the chances of success at that. So as an Immigrant, I wish you nothing but the best of luck. But I do hope that you haven't shot yourselves in the foot. Or to use another cliche, Haven't cut off your nose to spite your face. Cheers.

I miss the total lack of Scottish government concern for all those who lost their jobs in the Aberdeen oil industry and who struggled to sell their homes to move elsewhere.

What did you expect them to do?

Apologies if that sounds a bit abrupt, but Aberdeen wasn’t hit by the 2008 crash - oil hit $147 a barrel and whilst most of the UK slumped, the Aberdeen employment and property market was booming.

I'm genuinely curious. What are the advantages of either? To be honest, I'm struggling to see the benefit of leaving but at the same time, the leavers seem to think that there's a benefit to leaving.

The strong arguments for remain are, in my view, that it is the status quo, it's painful to unpick, and useful to have membership in a trading bloc.

At some point, these factors come together to create an all-powerful EU that is uninterested, verging on hostile, to the interests of its member states.

The Euro/Maastrich treaty/push to integration are unforgivable failures of judgement in my mind, and that we have John Major and Tony Blair again meddling in the British membership in the EU should send off alarm bells to all.

It's never going to be easy to leave, but given that they have tethered together 27 disparate states with a common currency, a common agricultural policy, a Parliament having a clear democratic deficit, a continuous migration of populations from poorer states to richer states, shadowy debt, exporting states and importing states, and so on, and so on - entirely untenable.

Had the EU taken the eurosceptisicm of the early 90s onward to heart and changed course, this all could have been averted.

At some point, these factors come together to create an all-powerful EU that is uninterested, verging on hostile, to the interests of its member states.

The EU is the member states. It is not an outside body which does something to them.

@andyoldlabour

There are some customs checks on some roads and some railway lines. That is not a hard border

Yes, it is. There are permanent Customs posts, custom checks are required and goods need to be declared. There are hard border crossings - as well as a requirement to declare goods, to pay charges if they are over a certain amount and not to bring in certain goods. This is a hard border

It doesn't matter about passport controls. Not at all. I know that there are no passport controls - as you and I have established (even though I knew about it), you can drive into Switzerland without going through a physical border post. You are supposed to declare things to customs and not to bring in certain goods. But there are lots of border crossings and manned posts for customs checks.

Do you think that such crossings, as well as the need for customs declarations is the definition of a hard border?