How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

I couldn't agree more, @EntropyRising, once we leave the EU, we can discuss banning Halal slaughter and stop the live export of animals, which we presently can't do.

EU animal welfare standards are pretty hopeless anyway. Many EU countries still use inhumane sow crates, so countries like Denmark and Holland can afford to sell cheaper meat. Thus many British pig farms with higher welfare standards have been put out of business as most of the public won't pay a decent price for their meat.

Gove is making encouraging noises about animal welfare and Boris's girlfriend is a passionate animal welfare campaigner so I have more faith in British politicians raising standards than EU ones (especially as our politicians know there are votes in it).

There is a lot of publicity about the horror of US meat imports, and yet none of these people are campaigning about cheap battery chickens coming to the UK from places like Brazil. Brazil's chicken exports were found to have an contamination rate of around 20% of salmonella.

If people want to buy cheap, low welfare meat they can buy it, whether we're in the EU or not. We then have the opportunity to vote in a government that takes this issue seriously, which the EU certainly does not.

I do, in particular the way the UK has used it (indirectly) to decimate UK wildlife.
However, here is nothing in the CAP to stop farmers using low till, leaving more headland and not being so reliant on pesticides.

Why do i see Hares and wild cats in France, a diverse birdlife but not in the UK ?

It was the UK that have blocked a neonicotinoid ban, only recently agreeing to curbs.

I have no faith that post brexit animal and environmental standards will stay the same, let alone increase.
Once we have FTA's with countries with lower standards, UK farmers will demand a level playing field.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/01/france-accused-of-failing-to-protect-endangered-birds
Those wonderful bird lovers in France jasjas

we can discuss banning Halal slaughter

That will never happen.

There are idiots on both sides.

Derxa That is irrelevant to the CAP...... & I didn't say that either, just that imho experience, france and other countries seem to have more wildlife than the UK, born out by a recent report too.

At least there is a directive the french have broken, what will we have post brexit and what sanction?

We could equally look at UK grouse shoots poisoning hawks...... those wonderful bird loving english!

France cannot compete with the UK's legacy of animal welfare. It would be wrong (but hardly surprising) for Europhiles to assume that all leavers are unconcerned with protecting the environment.

Crucially, the UK will be as lax or rigorous as our Parliament determines.

However, here is nothing in the CAP to stop farmers using low till, leaving more headland and not being so reliant on pesticides.

.......

Once we have FTA's with countries with lower standards, UK farmers will demand a level playing field.

Jasjas it looks like you suggest on the one hand that there's nothing to stop UK farmers from exceeding the CAP environmental standards (while presumably remaining competitive in the face of EU imports), but then you go on to say that these very same farmers will be in a race to the bottom when US imports arrive in the UK (despite Johnson's commitment to existing animal standards).

Have I got that wrong?

@jasjas1973 Are you insane? Animal loving France? Mate, I live in rural France. This is a country where they're not too bothered about "intensive" livestock farming, veganism numbers are incredibly low, the foie gras industry is still going strong and the hunting season extends from September to February. Where I live I'm literally hearing gun shots pretty much every day, throughout the day.
In France, their precious "terroir" and "patrimoine" will always trump animal welfare, and its one of the reasons I want to move back to the UK as soon as the Brexit situation is clearer.

that there's nothing to stop UK farmers from exceeding the CAP environmental standards (while presumably remaining competitive in the face of EU imports), but then you go on to say that these very same farmers will be in a race to the bottom when US imports arrive in the UK (despite Johnson's commitment to existing animal standards)

I'm talking about land management not farm animal welfare.

There is nothing to stop UK farmers using low/no-till cultivation, larger headlands, cover crops, some farmers do and are still competitive, the large majority do not, also, they are not growing crops that compete with EU imports either
Top soil run off around here is quite shocking, as is the use of sprays.

Agri will be bottom of the queue in any FTA, plus in the meantime, farmers will have to cope with tariffs.

Boris made a commitment to his wife, his word is worthless.

If your view is that Government trade commitments cannot be taken at face value because of Johnson's (colourful) romantic life, then it makes it difficult to have a reasonable conversation with you.

The UK only imports 23% of its beef, and 70% of that comes from Ireland. Do you see Irelands beef farmers stopping this and going bankrupt?

Yes Irish beef farmers might be about to face a hardship with a no-deal Brexit.

However there is some thought that seeing currently approx 90% of the UK's exported beef goes to the EU and after a no-deal Brexit another EU country will be easier to trade with ireland can fill that quota. Interesting one of the biggest importers is Ireland (go figure!).

This still does mean hardship though, there's an EU exceptional aid lined up (€50 million I think) because of this.

@FloatingObject

In UK shooting season is around 1/10 to 31/1... similar to france then, slightly different depending on species and country.

www.ruralsports.co.uk/shooting-seasons.html

You think UK doesn't do "intensive" ? 1000 cow mega dairies or pig farms where sows give birth at a few months old, do this for 1 to 2 years before being slaughtered, each sow will have around 60 births.
We slaughter about 230k pigs each week.

I wouldn't pork if i was paid.

Agree on Foie gras, disgusting method of production.

@EntropyRising

If only it were just his love life, you'd have a point.

Heathrow, Naserin Radcliffe, 350m on a bus, proroguing parliament/misleading the Queen and the dead in a ditch comment.

Oh shagging the american business woman and at the same time lining her up for grants and trips abroad.....

He is a lifelong europhile who saw an opportunity in Brexit to gain power and took it, hardly principled is he?

FloatingObject
Great post, particularly from someone who lives in France, you have seen first hand the French approach to animals - if it runs, swims or flies it goes in the pot, no matter how small it is. There are so many hunters in France, whereas it is very difficult to get a FAC in the UK - thank goodness.
There has been a little reported, but large problem in the UK, where Eastern European anglers have been taking and killing large fish - particularly specimem carp, from lakes and rivers to eat.

www.standard.co.uk/news/the-biggest-threat-to-britains-carp-is-eastern-european-migrants-6601854.html

Jasjas am I meant to be scandalised by this? The European Union is a lofty ideal, and he was right to go back and forth on its merits - I certainly have (BTW - he's not a lifelong Europhile unless you mean that literally). It's a shame that it has grown into such an intransigent behemoth.

I really do not give a shit about Johnson's shortcomings. The closer he gets to Brexit, the faster the mud will be slung - the Arcuri story has Sadiq Khan's fingerprints all over it.

You view misuse of public money as a shortcoming? No wonder we're in the shit.

@andyoldlabour

So, let us get this straight, you called me a liar and have now agreed with me on the very point you accused me of lying about - amazing

Nice selective quoting.

You will note that I also said that there are main roads, with border infrastructure, that are permanent , which have armed police and Customs checks on between the EU and Switzerland.

I believe this is a hard border.

From Wiki:

"In the context of Brexit, a "hard border" means one where there are limited number of authorised (and physically controlled) crossing points, staffed by customs officers and police, supported in times of tension by military forces"

What would you define this as?

In all honesty, I seriously doubt UK animal welfare standards will improve when we leave the EU. I strongly suspect we will lower our standards in terms of the quality and safety of food allowed into the human food chain, though, as the French may not be the best at animal welfare, but they certainly care more than the UK about food quality, and the US, with which we want a trade deal, has a pretty poor record on food safety. No wonder they chlorinate their chicken, given their relatively poor standards... I'd want my American grown and prepared chicken to be chlorinated, too, to save myself from their pathogens!

I think andyoldlabour thinks they have already built that wall between Mexico and the US, given their definition of a hard border.

Of course, in theory, we will be taking back control. I think the reality will be to see how far we can shove our noses up the backsides of countries we want to trade with, given our track record at negotiation.

Or we could just say no deal to the whole world and see where that gets us - our leaders seem to like that strategy.

I really do not give a shit about Johnson's shortcomings. The closer he gets to Brexit, the faster the mud will be slung - the Arcuri story has Sadiq Khan's fingerprints all over it

I think when it comes to keeping to commitments, Johnson's shortcoming are very relevant.

In any previous Govt, a minister with this much mud stuck to him would have long gone, its a measure of the mess that is brexit, that this sort of thing is seen as a vote winner.

Johnson is no nearer to Brexit than May was and i don't recall any stories on her sex life or anything else, apart from the wanton vandalism of a wheat field.... that must have gained her a few votes!

Given the backgrounds of Farage, Rees Mogg, Johnson, etc, I think they'll have very little interest in what constitutes a good deal for anyone in the UK outside of the City of London.

That "Eastern Europeans ate my Carp" story is 12 years old...... can't find anything more recent.

A friends DH is a keen carp fisherman, lives nr Swindon, no issues with Carp taken for food.

In any previous Govt, a minister with this much mud stuck to him would have long gone, its a measure of the mess that is brexit, that this sort of thing is seen as a vote winner.

REALLY? Like Tony Blair and the non-existent WMD?

Please try to maintain perspective.