How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

beliinisurge are you suggesting it's bullshit that Blair/Mandleson/Swinson et al have gone directly to the EU to frustrate Brexit?

Bellini

Are you saying you have not read or seen the evidence yourself of collusion with eu from members of our Parliament?

It's everywhere. If I trot to the laptop and studiously pick out links and quotes I'll be told I'm boring and who can read through that crap... So Google it.
But I'm very surprised that you of all posters haven't already seen this?

Varadker has made his intentions clear since Johnson unveiled his counter-proposal. He'll accept nothing short of the UK remaining in the customs union in perpetuity

This is because of an international treaty, the Good Friday Agreement, that the leave campaign forgot to take into consideration when making all of their promises. It is not the fault of the EU, or Remainers, or Parliament or all of the assorted villains that are being accused on this forum (and others) and in the press today - it is the GFA that keeps the UK tied to Ireland, and therefore to the EU - in perpetuity (unless the RoI decides to leave the EU and form a CU/SM with the UK, which is impossible to imagine).

Varadker is doing what he has been democratically elected and legally obliged to do - to look after the interests of the Republic of Ireland and to uphold the terms of the GFA.

All of the non-existent technology, the non-border posts, the non-checks floated by Johnson in his non-papers cannot resolve this issue.

Lots of people on here are berating MPs for doing their democratic duty in opposing a course of action that is likely to cause immense harm to the UK, and yet they seem happy to support Johnson's determination to break an international treaty (and also break UK law by proposing customs checks and infrastructure of any sort in Northern Ireland).

This is because of an international treaty, the Good Friday Agreement, that the leave campaign forgot to take into consideration when making all of their promises

I think they did forget it. It didn't really come up.

What was the debate like in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland about the border during the initial Brexit debate?

EntropyRising - you are just spouting Propaganda. The People voted for Brexit in name only, as they did not specify what form Brexit should take - it was a simple Leave/Remain binary choice. Whether you like it or not, Theresa May's deal took the UK out of the EU, just not in a way people not genuinely interested in democracy approved of. How do you know what the People voted for, beyond any type of Brexit whatsoever??? Are you a mind reader?

EntropyRising - you are just spouting Propaganda. The People voted for Brexit in name only, as they did not specify what form Brexit should take - it was a simple Leave/Remain binary choice. Whether you like it or not, Theresa May's deal took the UK out of the EU, just not in a way people not genuinely interested in democracy approved of. How do you know what the People voted for, beyond any type of Brexit whatsoever??? Are you a mind reader?

I'm not a mind reader (I presume you're not either) - one thing I do know to be true is that the Conservative party is polling well ahead.

If, conversely, they were trailing, would you interpret this a support for remain?

I voted remain. However I accept we must leave. However I do fear for our future too. Especially for the fragile peace we have in NI. The likes of BJ appear not to give a ff about this. They are happy to leave without a backstop which could send us backwards in terns of peace in NI.
I do not claim to be an expert in these matters but I am worried.
Trade issues are also a concern. We ordered an item from outside the E U recently and were hit with a Customs fee of £5 and a charge of £8 . Annoying but we can afford to pay it. Not everone is so fortunate..
It strikes me thst the politicians can well afford the additional expense of a No deal BREXIT but many who voted leave or remain cannot.
Everything is about what we give to EU but not do much about what they give back. I for one benefitted from courses funded by the EU.

I'm suggesting that I don't give a shit. If it keeps you warm at night and helps you pretend that No Deal is fiiiiine, google whatever bedtime reading gets you through.
As long as GFA is protected, I don't give a flying fuck.

What a GF

EntropyRising - I kniw in tems of Polls, Remain was expected to win the Referendum. So let's all stop pretending Boris Johnson is standing up for democracy, shall we? He's just another grubby politician trying to win an election by spreading lies and propaganda. Another election would certainly be interesting and "democratic". I think all our politicians are running scared of the possible consequences, though, which are unlikely to resolve the hatred and division deliberately stoked by the people standing for election.

@justintimberlakesfishwife;
Many businesses have found themselves under siege because of our membership of the EU.

If you look into any of our industries you will find so many that have been handicapped or damaged by the EU. You need to conduct your own research and not rely on Mumsnet for this kind of information but it is out there, if you choose to look for it with an open mind.

The best known example is our fishing industry – although most people are unaware of the full extent of the damage. Britain used to enjoy fishing areas that extended up to 200 miles from our coast. Under the terms under which we joined the EU this distance was reduced to just 12 miles, and even that must be negotiated every 10 years. We’ve lost access to fishing sales that would otherwise now be worth £2 billion a year. As an environmentalist, I am horrified at the waste created by EU rules that results in thousands of tonnes of fish being thrown away. And then we have to donate British tax payers money to other fishing countries, p’ly Greece and Poland.

The dead hand of the EU extends to so many businesses. The auction industry is damaged by the EU’s directive that a payment must be paid to an artist or his descendants every time one of his paintings is sold. The UK had the most successful auction houses in the world but now much of the business goes to China and New York.

I know the founder of the largest office furniture company in the UK. He voted for Brexit as a large amount of company time was spent complying with the endless EU directives that spew out of Brussels. He said that a middle to large company like his could cope with the bureaucracy, indeed, he employed someone whose sole job was to deal with it all, but smaller companies cannot do this.

I used to buy herbal medicines from a small family company in Sussex. One day I rang to make my order and he said he was closing the company as the EU had made so many regulations that he could no longer comply.

While I appreciate that a federalist, empire-building structure like the EU will benefit those in large corporations, like your husband, the reality is that the big business corporate utopia that it promotes is not helpful to the majority. That is why the majority of the electorate voted to leave.

Democratic elections are designed to create unequal outcomes: for some to win, others have to lose. You claim you will be financially worse off from the democratic vote, however democracy depends on graceful losers who are able to accept a majority consensus.

We ordered an item from outside the E U recently and were hit with a Customs fee of £5 and a charge of £8

Presumably you bought it from outside the EU because it was cheaper, so the fees are just levelling the playing field against the EU based firms who've already paid import duty etc when they imported it from outside the EU??

Many businesses have found themselves under siege because of our membership of the EU.

I have a small accountancy practice. We've a number of clients who will only deal either with UK customers or non EU customers to avoid the red tape/bureaucracy/cost etc of selling to other EU countries. As the poster above said, it's fine for bigger firms who have resources to deal with it, but for small one man bands, they've no support, so they take the decision that it's better not to sell to EU customers so they don't have to run through hoops for EU red tape.

Britain used to enjoy fishing areas that extended up to 200 miles from our coast.

You might want to read up on the Cod Wars, and how UK boats continually encroached on Icelandic waters. And that was way before Iceland adopted a 200 mile limit.

@ContinuityError, but why are you justifying throwing away thousands of tonnes of fish away just to conform to bizarre, globalist EU strictures?

@twofingerstoEverything
How sweet that you went to so much time and trouble to pick through my old posts to see if you could prove I'd referred to all leave voters as thick racists. And how selective you were in your quoting

It took five minutes via a Google site search, it's not hard and wasn't time consuming or troubling for me.

Don't know why you're calling them my quotes either. You typed and posted them. I didn't.

Nothing looks different from 'selective quoting'. You said Nine times out of ten, when I've seen the phrase 'thick, racist Leaver' it's written by a Leaver claiming that's how they're perceived by Remainers. Odd that. and I provided examples of you perceiving Remain voters as thick and racist. With your own words.

I didn't see the debate, but people like that always strike me as dim-witted. Get on with what? This is the Brexit dilemma. No plan means nothing can be 'got on with'. 'People in business' probably wouldn't have been that stupid in the first place... as someone else said, Leavers voted for a departure, not a destination.

You called someone that supports/supported Remain dim-witted.

maybe not for you, but it's absolutely about that for many, many Brexit supporters (Yaxley-Lennon, Football Lads Alliance, NF, BNP, EDL, etc etc.) It is their guiding principle.

You called many, many Brexit supports racist.

People with half a brain will not be pointing the finger at the EU, but will be looking at the ineptitude of our own government, which chose to suspend parliament at a time of crisis. Leavers are already starting the 'blame the EU' rhetoric because they know this is a massive fuck up. It's important not to be taken in by this type of propaganda and to call it out when you spot it...

^^ That last one was out of context on my part.

But then, I've had enough of 'remoaners', 'get over it', 'we won' as an answer to every discussion to last me a lifetime

Oh god this!
Especially the ‘we won’ comment... I don’t think there are any winners where Brexit is concerned

I have a small accountancy practice. We've a number of clients who will only deal either with UK customers or non EU customers to avoid the red tape/bureaucracy/cost etc of selling to other EU countries.

I also run a company that imports and exports to the EU. Over 90% of our customers are in the EU.

Your clients might not be telling you the whole truth. If they deal with UK customers they have to comply with EU regulations - because the UK is in the EU. There is very little 'red tape/bureaucracy/cost' in selling to the EU - it is as easy to sell products to a customer in Copenhagen or Cologne as it is to sell to one in Coventry or Clydebank. If they are dealing primarily with non-EU customers, they can do so on the basis of EU-negotiated agreements (e.g. some countries will accept UK products with a European CE mark of quality), or they have to deal with 100 different sets of regulations for 100 different countries. None of this will get any easier once the UK leave the EU (which takes almost 50% of UK exports).

Oh the terrible overheads that the eu put on businesses, to protect our safety. Shocking.

@FreshFreesias

I didn’t make any comments any on discarding so no idea why you are making that up?

@ContinuityError, but you posted, justifying the EU's treatment of our fishermen. I would like a Remainer to explain why throwing away thousands of tonnes of valuable fish is acceptable.

The best known example is our fishing industry – although most people are unaware of the full extent of the damage. Britain used to enjoy fishing areas that extended up to 200 miles from our coast.

The fishing industry, that contributes 0.5% to the economy and is almost entirely reliant on free access to the EU. That is the deal - allow our EU boats into your waters and you can sell your catches to us as well, tariff-free. What is rarely mentioned when discussing fishing is that the English fleet fishes largely in Irish, Norwegian and French waters. As usual, Leave only ever quote the perceived downsides of EU membership and conveniently omit the advantages.

@user1497207191 your customers only selling to "the UK and non-EU because of the EU red tape" doesn't make sense as the UK is in the EU?

Yes, the fishing policy needs reworking. The eu know this and will fix it. At least they tried to stop fishermen putting themselves out of business by overfishing. And ibrexit supporting MEP did fuck all to get a better policy. Grief, many well intentioned things go badly wrong. Think universal credit.

Oh well, it will all come back to haunt the Leave campaigners when they do fuck all to resurrect the fishing industry in the UK and just end up with the UK fishing fleet having pitched battles with other ships, to nobody's benefit whatsoever.