How shockingly ignorant Remain supporters are.

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Sorry, guys, but you are.

In the past week I have been told we must Remain because BJ is a dictator by one, and by another because it is easier to travel .

There seems to be no knowledge of our history and institutions, legal, political, sovereign and economic considerations, the history etc of Europe and what is really going on.

Labour and the trade unions were wholly against entry, and the Conservatives pushed it through by stealth and deceit. That crusty old socialist Tony Benn was prophetic on his remarks about what it meant. Now, today, that is reversed. Fascinating, really.

For a good grounding on the roots of the issue (Maastricht was going to result in Brexit it was completely inevitable), this documentary is quite useful:

@FreshFreesias I'm afraid I'm not going to "graciously accept" a result that will lead, amongst many many things, to the loss of my DH's job, the loss to my children of their freedoms that they have as European citizens, and one where even one of the key architects of has admitted it will take a generation to recover from. I am not that fucking magnanimous .

They were not chesper user. They were pretty much the same price as everywhere else. Dh ordered them from Amazon and had no idea tbat we would be charged VAT which actually came in at more than 20% plus a hefty £8.00 admin fee. Probably would have bern cheaper buying in HMV

@Midgebabe, but where is the safety in throwing away thousands of tonnes of fish to comply with EU federalist, corporate strictures?

I accept that many Remainers have an attachment to this bizarre, empire-building construct, but pretending everything is so marvellous in the EU, even when it patently isn't, does you no favours.

And even more, pedalling it as some kind of cosy, caring organisation when it really only exists to make rich people and corporations even richer.

"So when said there were no borders between Switzerland and the EU, you were in fact lying"

The insults are indeed flying, and they are being launched by people without real world knowledge.
I have been called a liar, despite the fact that I said that certain countries including Switzerland had NO HARD borders.
Even the link which you have supplied bears this out, saying that between Norway and Seden it is a "no fuss" border.
I have travelled through Switzerland on a regular basis and that is even more simple, you either take the motorway, pay the Vignette tax, or not take the motorway, enjoy the countryside and travel free.
Of course this will be put down as "anecdotal", something often used by people who have not had any life experiences themselves.

There's quite a lot of change to UK fisheries under Crash-Out Brexit.
There's a lot of paperwork to complete to export to EU.

Recently, UK-based fisheries export 80% of what they catch, 66% to the EU. That isn't going to be so easy any more.

If you look into any of our industries you will find so many that have been handicapped or damaged by the EU

You will also find industries that exist in the UK solely because the UK is in the EU. One million jobs in the motor and aerospace industries exist because of the free access to the EU market and the ease of importing and transporting components for Just In Time manufacturing. All of these industries are under threat from Brexit. The motor industry alone accounts for £18bn to the UK economy - and all of the people who have jobs that are reliant on the spending power of the motor workers are also at risk. When Honda closes its factory in Swindon next year, not only do 4,000 direct employees lose their jobs, but also the people who work in the shops and cafes and entertainments centres where these people spend their wages, and the people who provide services to Honda (cleaning, transport, catering, banking etc) will also see their incomes hit.

I have been called a liar, despite the fact that I said that certain countries including Switzerland had NO HARD borders

I have travelled through Switzerland on a regular basis and that is even more simple, you either take the motorway, pay the Vignette tax, or not take the motorway, enjoy the countryside and travel free

And so have I...

There is border infrastructure on the border between Switzerland and the EU.

That is hard border. Infrastructure. Unless you have a different definition of a hard border.

The insults are indeed flying, and they are being launched by people without real world knowledge

Umm. I have been to Switzerland and Norway as well. I have seen the border infrastructure there. I have also travelled between Switzerland and France and passed through the roads with no borders.

But you would admit that there is border infrastructure there for checks

www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-da7e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

"
Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@DriftingLeaves

So either you are lying about there being no hard border or the FT is...

Ooopps. - seems the FT don't like things being copied. Anyway. the link clearly states that there is a hard border and infrastructure. Something I have seen with my own eyes.

"I can't link on phone, just Google it."

Classic!😂 I found some bullshit online which is true because I believe it and now I can't be arsed to link you to it

Fascinated to now what phones people have that prevent them copying a link from the browser.and pasting it on here (which is possibly in the very same browser).

What was the debate like in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland about the border during the initial Brexit debate?
There was no brexit debate in the Republic of Ireland. Being a separate country and all that, which meant no leave or remain campaign going on.

Tony Blair and John Major certain debated it. I think they might have mentioned the GFA. I'm fairly sure Teresa May spoke about the boarder in the lead up to the vote.

Leave campaign were dismissive of any concerns. Also it seems that the average voter just wasn't interested enough to consider it or even listen.

@FreshFreesias

I pointed out that UK boats continually encroached on Icelandic fishing waters (even when it was a 4 mile limit), prompting Iceland to eventually instigate a 200 mile limit, in response to the comment Britain used to enjoy fishing areas that extended up to 200 miles from our coast.

I haven’t commented on discarding, but please continue with your niggling.

There was no brexit debate in the Republic of Ireland. Being a separate country and all that, which meant no leave or remain campaign going on

I would have thought that people in the Republic would have been concerned about Brexit on the border and would have raised some questions to the UK about it.

You are mixing up 2 different posts. Safety relates to that horrible red tape that prevents businesses doing whatever they like

Although in terms of future sustainability of the human race, food security etc, the fishing policy could be said to have a safety angle.

At least the eu tried to solve the over fishing problem . Tried to work for our better interests.. and farage refused to engage with it. He didn't spend time working out anything better. He just took the money he was paid and didn't bother to do any work .

At least the eu says, oh, not quite right, let's try again.

@andyoldlabour

The insults are indeed flying, and they are being launched by people without real world knowledge.
I have been called a liar, despite the fact that I said that certain countries including Switzerland had NO HARD borders
Even the link which you have supplied bears this out, saying that between Norway and Seden it is a "no fuss" border.
I have travelled through Switzerland on a regular basis and that is even more simple, you either take the motorway, pay the Vignette tax, or not take the motorway, enjoy the countryside and travel free.

There are quite clearly borders between Switzerland and the EU and between Norway and Sweden (EU). I even provided a photo. Here's another one of the border between Switzerland and France.

There is a huge difference between you driving your car over a 'soft' border, which you can do without many issues, and driving a van or truck full of commercial goods over the same border. A truck-load of goods needs to be registered, checked for quality, compliance and certifications and tariffs need to be paid - for goods transport this is very much a hard border.

A 'no fuss' border is still a border, and crossing between Norway and Sweden can still take hours to clear customs (I spent years working for a company that sent several trucks a week to Norway), which is why something similar would not work in Ireland (and would be illegal).

@andyoldlabour I think this was posted earlier but I'll post it again...

www.bbc.com/news/uk-44054594

Don't feed the troll, people. What are you having for dinner?

"I would have thought that people in the Republic would have been concerned about Brexit on the border and would have raised some questions to the UK about it."
Given that "the UK" is refusing to listen to 48% of the people who voted in the referendum, they are hardly going to listen to what a foreign country says. "There be dragons" appears to be the policy.

@andyoldlabour

When people tell you not to believe what you have seen with your own eyes, we are entering a whole new world of bizarre.

Still, I suppose you'll repeat that lie again and again, despite knowing it's a lie.

As an aside, I have even seen checks between Denmark and Germany which kind of flies in the face of what the EU is all about. But they are doing it anyway to keep a check on who is coming in.

FreshFreesias

Great post particularly about the fishing.
We are held to higher standards than the rest of the EU. Italian and Maltese illegal tuna fishing is off the scale and the EU turns a blind eye, whilst the UK fleets have to dump thousands of tons of perfectly good fish back in the sea, only for them to be mopped up by Herring Gulls.
I have been to fish markets in France and Italy, where there are live fish flapping away in agony in the midday sun - where are the animal rights protesters when this is going on? As a fisherman, it made me sick to the core.

www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-tuna/italys-illegal-fishing-threatens-tuna-species-wwf-idUSTRE49682120081007

anyoldlabour A little bit of urban myth about fishing. The standard remains the same across EU in territorial waters. The RN has a fish squadron that regularly boards EU vessels to support the Defra staff in enforcement.
There is a common fisheries policy applicable to all.

From Andrew Rawnsley in today's Guardian.

"We are now entering the most intense round of the Brexit blame game. For three years, Remainers have pointed infuriated fingers at Mr Johnson and the other frontmen of the Leave campaign for flogging a bogus prospectus that Brexit would be a painless “piece of cake”, not never-ending agony. Since it cannot be the Brexiters’ fault that their promises have not been fulfilled, they must find someone else to blame and that would be intransigent Europeans, obstructive parliamentarians, quisling civil servants and meddling judges. With less than a month to go before the Halloween deadline, and an election hovering on the horizon as well, the issue of culpability is going to become even more fiercely contested. We approach the endgame of the blame game."

And now the flimsy fantasy that is Brexit is about to crash headlong into the 40-ton juggernaut called reality. Brexit's backers have created a pyramid scheme in which those at the bottom pay so that those at the top can prosper. 'Boris' has just been a useful character, a mascot for the whole enterprise in the same way that the Honey Monster sells Sugar Puffs or Churchill the nodding dog sells car insurance.

Johnson is showing signs of panic as he is starting to understand the hopeless situation that he's got himself into. Those at the top have invested millions, hoping to reap billions in profits. A dangerous situation for Johnson to be in if the backers ever get the slightest inkling that their investment might have been wasted (rather like being in hock to the Mafia), or if the people at the bottom ever realise that they have been conned.

"So either you are lying about there being no hard border or the FT is..."

No, I have experienced it myself in 2018, but then why am I actually trying to convince you?
I could give you the exact route - just North of Basle, still in France, near Mulhouse, go into Germany, then take the second non motorway road into Switzerland.
About 200 metres from my home is a large area of woods/parkland - about 560 acres, and there are around 140 fallow deer there. I have seen them because I go out for regular walks near dawn and dusk.
One of my mates doesn't believe there are any deer, because he goes for walks in the middle of the day, usually on Saturday or Sunday and he has never seen one.
I compare him and you - I think you would get on well together.

CherryPavlova

Didn't you read the Reuters article?
Do you have any idea about animal rights in the EU - mainland Europe?
I could tell you horror stories about what I have seen.
Go for a holiday in France, Spain or Italy, go to the local markets and see the animal abuse which goes on.

"As an aside, I have even seen checks between Denmark and Germany"

In that one statement you have shot down your whole argument, because what you witnessed between Denmark and Germany is a soft border, such as the one which we witnessed last year on a trip to Salzburg between Germany and Austria.
To be perfectly honest I would welcome that between any country nowadays.

No, I have experienced it myself in 2018, but then why am I actually trying to convince you?I could give you the exact route - just North of Basle, still in France, near Mulhouse, go into Germany, then take the second non motorway road into Switzerland

I know that there are plenty of routes where there is no border between Switzerland and the EU. I have been on them

I know that there are routes where there is a hard border because of customs checks.

So I am not sure what you are trying to convince me of?
You don't need to convince me that there are some routes where there is no border. I have been on them.

I think I need to convince you that there are routes where there IS a hard border between Switzerland and the EU.

What would it take to convince you ?