To think most the UK now wants to remain in the EU

[Cinammoncake]

Wales seems to be saying they'd rather be in the EU. Scotland voted remain, as did Northern Ireland, Liverpool, Manchester, London.

Polls recently have showed more for remain than leave now.

I would prefer to leave on a soft Brexit.
But I really don’t think that anyone can call a 48/52 vote held 3.5 years ago ‘the will of the people’ anymore.
People have died, people have come up to voting age, people have swapped sides, does that past vote represent what people want anymore.

No one spoke of there being a second referendum, no debate over what the question(s) would be it was agreed overwhelmingly by MP’s to go ahead with the referendum they didn’t even debate it

Apart from the Referendum Act?

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2015-06-09/debates/15060939000001/EuropeanUnionReferendumBill

You might like to read this - some parts of it are very predictive - especially about the issues in Ireland (Column 1104, Mark Durkan)

From that debate - Mark Durkan

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2015-06-09/debates/15060939000001/EuropeanUnionReferendumBill

"There is a danger that we will end up with a referendum campaign in which the yes side includes people who want to be both half in and half out, and a no side that is also confused because it includes some people who want to be totally out, as well as people who say that if we reject it, we can be half out and renegotiate in the way that Ireland did. The danger is that we will end up with a referendum that does not settle the question at all in the terms in which Members believe it will."

So if the will of the people is now to remain we should do so?

This is a hugely valid question.

Although I don't think there should be a second referendum, your question is pertinent. If the will of the people is to stay now they have witnessed and have more insight into what would happen, what is the duty of parliament?

I’ve found the opposite. A lot of people who voted remain recognise that the vote was a democratic one and now just want us to leave instead of this long protracted farce. I couldn’t think of anything worse than having yet another referendum, and if the result is the same, another long drawn out process. I can’t think that any sane person would actually push for this. Judging by recent Brexit ‘protests’ from the people of the UK, which have been small and halfhearted, I don’t think the majority of us have the stomach for anymore referendums. Just let’s get on with it.

The difficulty here and it's the same with the Scottish referendum is that one side grabs the high ground and it becomes difficult for people to publicly have the opposite view. So, they keep their mouth shut and the speak up in the ballot box.

And, scotland and the other areas weren't voting as areas, they were all voting as the citizens of the UK, what specific areas voted is irrelevant to democracy.

Anyone who thinks it will all be over if we leave or remain is deluded. This will rumble on for years. You can’t be a member of something like this for 40 years and leave fast. If we leave without a deal, the next few years will be spent doing deals and re knitting together all the good things. I actually don’t think we can remain now. We have no credibility. But whatever.. it won’t be over fast.

should we have a second and third and fourth referendum every 3 years? Because people change their minds all the time. If remain won a second referendum, you would be insistent that that result should be respected. Could leavers then not demand a third vote and make it a best of three? You know, because people change their minds!

This isn’t about people just changing their minds. This is about the absolute shit show it has become and the potential damage leaving the EU will do if we leave with no deal.

I voted remain, didn’t like the result but accepted it, right up until the last couple of months. When I saw just how our government is treating this as some kind of popularity contest, risking our economy for political gain, playing games with our future, it seems to me now is the right time to be asking the U.K., is this really what you want? At the very least, we should be asked if we are prepared to leave the EU without a deal. If it turns out the British people do want us driven off a cliff, I’ll accept it. But leaving with No deal wasn’t even something the most ardent Leave campaigners touted.

But I really don’t think that anyone can call a 48/52 vote held 3.5 years ago ‘the will of the people’ anymore.

Yeah. And the percentages themselves indicate more than anything that (even if no one changed their mind) there is no overwhelming majority here.

Have you read it ? And you think that supports an argument for a second referendum or support should that the complexities of the referendum where throughly discussed and debated - you don’t expect more from our elected MP’s when such a momentous decision is being handed over to the public

One afternoon where a handful of MP’s discussed the issues around a referendum

I’m sick of hear the “I’m fed up with Brexit/I’m sick of hearing about Braxit/I just want it over with” it’s a REALLY REALLY important deal (it no deal as the case may be) which is going to affect all our lives, if we’re going to do it then I want it done properly and if that takes time and we have to hear about it in the news a bit more then so be it, it’s not a trip to the bloody dentist!

Absolutely, Babybel90. Leaving with or without a deal won't get Brexit 'done'. Anyone who thinks that is deluded. There will be years of protracted negotiations.

And you think that supports an argument for a second referendum or support should that the complexities of the referendum where throughly discussed and debated - you don’t expect more from our elected MP’s when such a momentous decision is being handed over to the public

You said that MPs didn't debate it.
That's clearly not true - they did debate it. There was a referendum bill. They just didn't debate it very well and the issues that were raised in the debate weren't discussed very widely.

If they had been discussed more widely, who knows where we'd have been now.

I agree it is an important deal.The problem is that the MPs in charge if it are too busy posturing to achieve anything.
I am sick if it because at the moment I can't change anything and don't want to watch the monkeys any more.

You have read through that and you consider that a discussion and debate - go and read up on other debates in parliament where there is real involvement from a number of MP’s before a bill is passed there was a handful expressing concerns it was nothing more than a formality

Lazy and incompetent- that might be acceptable for yourself I expect more and if more MP’s had bothered to act professionally and stepped up to what should be expected of them there would have been an actual debate on the referendum act and what was put forward to the public

They didn’t bother and it’s embarrassing show of incompetence for all our MP’s that this was put forward and considered satisfactory enough

And it doesn’t back up an argument at all that there was a debate it highlights how terribly incompetent the vast majority of MP’s on both sides of the argument have acted in this whole process

Wales wont succeed with an indy ref at all. The hilarity of them saying the UK can't survive outside the EU but then the Welsh Nationalists saying if we leave the EU l they will push for an indy ref? How does Wales suppose they'd 'survive' outside the EU or without the rest of the UK? 😂 The irony is not lost.

Wales wont succeed with an indy ref at all. The hilarity of them saying the UK can't survive outside the EU but then the Welsh Nationalists saying if we leave the EU l they will push for an indy ref? How does Wales suppose they'd 'survive' outside the EU or without the rest of the UK? 😂 The irony is not lost.

But irrespective of this, how can England say we'll we're leaving and not expect consequences, particularly from Scotland and N.I (and particularly N.I given that it'd break the Good Friday Agreement) People were effectively voting for the end of the union, something else that wasn't put forward at the time.

I am sick if it because at the moment I can't change anything and don't want to watch the monkeys any more.
Agreed. I think we all feel like this. Surely the best thing is to revoke, and maybe say look we'll debate this for the next 5 years in parliament and see if we can find a sensible way forwards agreed between ourselves and the EU and then put that to a referendum to see if the people want it then. In the meantime, we can just get on with normal life instead.

And, scotland and the other areas weren't voting as areas, they were all voting as the citizens of the UK, what specific areas voted is irrelevant to democracy.

Apart from the fact that it isn't as Scotland is its own separate area. The impact is felt in a different way to England and has different consequences, because of devolved powers and a different legal system. And I say this as someone who didn't want independence.

The NI with the GFA have even more reason to understand that specific areas voting was relevant to democracy.

If it isn't possible for people who want to leave to understand the impact and importance of the current political structures in the UK I can't see the UK surviving as a single entity.

Apart from the fact that it isn't as Scotland is its own separate area. The impact is felt in a different way to England and has different consequences, because of devolved powers and a different legal system.

Yes, but all that is irrelevant as the question was about whether the UK should Remain or Leave. It was never about whether Newcastle should remain or Scotland or Devon or whatever.

I'm a No voter who voted remain, but I really struggled with the latter as I wanted to vote honestly but also felt that my gut was telling me to do the opposite as I knew that NS et al would use it as a political pawn.

I very rarely get the government/parliament/council/representative I vote for but democracy is democracy.

I personally think the whole way the vote was set up was wrong. You really need a lot more than 50% and a minimum turn out when you are talking about a vote of this magnitude, but we are where we are and the biggest shock is that the libdems think we should just cancel and not even have another referendum! (unless that's changed since I last looked as quite frankly i'm fed up listening to it all and dreading the possibility of Scexit to follow :( )

but I really struggled with the latter as I wanted to vote honestly but also felt that my gut was telling me to do the opposite as I knew that NS et al would use it as a political pawn.

Absolutely. There is no doubt there are a lot of Indy voters who either couldn’t care, or didn’t like the EU but who voted remain knowing it would let the SNP claim “substantial change” and bring another “once in a generation” referendum. The people of Scotland knew fine well the Brexit referendum was going to be a risk to the Union.

Just thinking though. I wonder if NS would have taken the same view if we voted leave and the U.K. voted remain?

Just thinking though. I wonder if NS would have taken the same view if we voted leave and the U.K. voted remain?

that would have been interpreted and fed back to the faithful to preach onwards as an indication that Scotland wanted to go it alone and was up for change. No voters were caught between a rock and hard place as it were.

Whatever (if anything) emerges from Johnson's new attempts at negotiation will be the best withdrawal terms that we're going to get. It will be brexit defined in concrete terms. It is entirely correct to for the HoC to approve it only subject to a confirmatory referendum to ensure that it's what The People want.

Remaining is the only way to get it over with and move on.

Over half the electorate aren't just going to shrug their shoulders and carry on as if it never happened.

Farage/UKIP/Brexit party will start gaining votes/popularity again and the whole farce will be repeated in 10/15 years time.

Whatever happens, we need some talented politicians who are able to heal the divides, not just Brexit/Remain, but also the North/South divide, the Scottish/Welsh independence divide etc. The last 20 years has caused deep divisions across the UK and we need a Parliament able and willing to realise Parliamentary mistakes over the past 20 years and start to reverse them. Not holding my breath.

that would have been interpreted and fed back to the faithful to preach onwards as an indication that Scotland wanted to go it alone and was up for change.

Would love to see the verbal gymnastics on that one. “We want something different (except we don’t) so we’re going for independence so we can make our own choices (except our vision has always been Scotland in the EU because we know we will then be peripheral and get more money) But we will pretend we really don’t want to be doing what the U.K. is....” 😄