circumcision ... to be conflicted

[Forallyouknow]

Come from a culture where you have a boy = you get it done. Never paid much attention to it until - predictably - had a boy. Had a traumatic birth where baby nearly didn’t make it- he is well now. Literally as soon as he was home I’ve been pestered from every relative / acquaintance when we are having it done- they want a party where they give money to the child. I can’t bear to put him through intentional pain but it seems it’s a case of when rather than if... I don’t know anyone from the same culture who wouldn’t do it ( even the young ones) whilst I don’t mind going against the grain there’s a part of me that thinks we should- I don’t know why other than it’s just assumed you do it. Feel very conflicted over the whole thing. Unfortunately because it is normally celebrated with a big party everyone knows whether you have had it done or not so my plan to just hope no one notices whilst I decide hasn’t worked. Guess more wondering what others think of it than aibu...

If you had a daughter you wouldn’t even contemplate it. Don’t be conflicted, stand up for your sons right to not be mutilated.

@animalprintfree

My son at 4 is still too young to understand but I suspect he is not going to be pleased later on in life when he has to deal with the impact of my decision and how it makes him different from every other male in his ethnic group

I am not Jewish so this is a genuine question but I appreciate it sounds like a piss take. I promise it's not...but how on Earth will they know?! Do they line up and compare penises regularly? And what is the actual given reason that Judaism requires this?

Well done, by the way. You are part of the solution, whether it feels like it or not.

@EachandEveryone - out of interest what area do you work in? Is there a large Jewish community or orthodox community?

I'm a bit of a lone wolf where I am 😂 it's not often I come across other Jews through work, a lot of stigma in the Jewish community around MH so difficult to break into sometimes.

There is absolutely no medical reason to circumcise a little boy unless he has a tight foreskin.

Even then, a surprisingly large number of medical professionals (even some urologists) either don't understand the basics of infant anatomy or otherwise lie if they have some kind of hidden agenda to promote circumcisions.

Unless it's an actual medical issue like hypospadias, a baby's foreskin is meant to be tightly bonded to the head of his penis and it (usually) loosens before or during puberty in preparation for the stage of his life when he will need it to retract.

The number of doctors who will insist that a circumcision is needed because a baby or young' boy's foreskin doesn't retract is astounding. It makes no more sense than suggesting your baby daughter needs breast implants because she's completely flat-chested or hormone treatment because she isn't having periods.

Yes North London so very familiar with all different levels of the religion. I cant say ive met anyone that havent done it tbh.

If a group of men and women were so over invested in a baby’s genitals for any other reason, nobody would think it anything other than creepy and worrying.

This is no different and it is creepy and worrying.

A party? Money? What the actual fuck?! It’s not ok to put pressure on you like that.

When your DS is older, he can choose for himself. Waiting is not a permanent decision. Slicing off part of his body is a permanent decision. It shouldn’t be taken by anyone other than the person whose body it is, in my view.

I was born in the US to British parents and, as was routine at the time, was circumcised (not for religous reasons). I am perfectly happy with my penis and have never for a moment wished that I wasn't circumcised. Despite moving back to the UK when I was three and thus growing up amongst predominantly uncircumcised peers I suffered no teasing or bullying of any kind.

However, I have two sons and it never even occurred to me to get them circumcised...

EachandEveryone. I only know one Jewish mother who didn't have a brit for her son. She was against any form of medical intervention, so also an anti-vaxxer, as it happens. But you are dealing with real life, rather than MN, which as you know is full of Imams who own pubs and have pork BBQ's, and rabbis who refuse to officiate at circumcisions (thanks for that tip, Double barrelled).

Watch the programme on Netflix in America. It made me cry. You will never do that to your baby if you watch it. It talks about how boys are emotionally scarred from the pain of it. It is so shocking.

I mean about circumsision in America on Netflix.

I promise it's not...but how on Earth will they know?! Do they line up and compare penises regularly? And what is the actual given reason that Judaism requires this?

I'm not that poster but as another Jew - changing rooms, basically. The reason - Google "Abrahamic covenant" for a better explanation than I can give.

I'm not that poster but as another Jew - changing rooms, basically.

Do people really tend to stare at other people's genitals in changing rooms? Personally, I'd have thought that openly admitting that you've been deliberately looking down at other boys' or men's willies - and leaving yourself wide open to being challenged on your reasons for doing so - would be manifold more embarrassing than happening to have a slightly different-looking penis - an aesthetic that is shared by thousands of millions of males worldwide.

If it wasn't intact/circumcised status, the kind of creepy boys or men who feel the need to comment on others' penises in the changing rooms would just find something else to comment on - size of said organ, amount of testicle droop, lack/preponderance of pubic hair etc.

You get bullies in all walks of life - we should stand up to and/or report them rather than changing ourselves to accommodate their pathetic whims and try to gain their approval.

In my culture the boys have to be circumcised as well and when I was pregnant I told my family if I have a boy I wouldn’t be doing it, its a horrible thing to put them through for no reason

I don't think boys stare at each other , but it's quite obvious!

I think this only applies if boys go to a Jewish school. I live fairly rural and this is the first boy in 15 years in the community!

I'm pretty sure nobody will notice with him, at least I'll have to time to explain this to my DS before anybody makes a snarky comment about him

WeBuilt you need to imagine a situation in which the school is religious, families are religious and 99% of the boys will be circumcised and there will be discussion about why boys are circumcised and why it's important - and every other man/boy will be circumcised. Yes, I think that in x years there someone will notice and say something, and then it'll be in the gossip mill forever. Same as when so-and-so saw Mrs Such-and-Such eating a bacon sarnie or What's-His-Name driving on Yom Kippur or whatever else. Organised religion can have that effect, especially in an echo chamber.

Fine for me not living in the guts of Stamford Hill and relying on Jewish schools, but I think it's important to have that context because it's the reality for some people.

You must have known about the tradition before you married and started a family.

I understand your misgivings, circumcision is not part of my culture either so never thought of it. However, Jews and Muslims and many from different African cultures have always circumcised boys and it is routinely done on boys in America. They grow up alright, there is rarely any complication.

Give it some more thought. You did buy into this culture when you married.

Give it some more thought. You did buy into this culture when you married.

This is a poor argument. FGM is a widespread cultural practice in some areas of the world, that doesn't mean it is a positive thing to do.
Domestic violence likewise is legal in many countries.
OP has married a person not a culture. She is responsible for the safeguarding of her dc.

Rachelover60 the OP is already part of the culture. She didn't choose to 'buy into' it but she does question the 'tradition' of slicing off the foreskin of a perfectly healthy penis.

You say you'd never thought about it but now feel qualified to tell her to suck it up. The OP is exercising some critical thinking and questioning something that has no benefit and the potential for harm.
'Because it's always been done' is never a good reason on its own,culture or no culture.

Give it some more thought. You did buy into this culture when you married.

This is such rubbish. It’s like saying that you should always pander to poor behaviour because you knew what you were getting. And that people can’t change. DH married in to MY culture also, he knew what he was getting. One doesn’t trump the other.

Not to mention that you fall in love with a person and not a doctrine.

Just tell them you won't be discussing your child's genitals with them as it's weird.

My husband is Jewish and circumcised. I faced similar pressure and am very, VERY pleased I stood up for my son and his body and his penis. I will have no problem telling him proudly as an adult that I protected his foreskin! A top paedatrician we consulted on the matter explained that the religious practice stems from a time when these cultures resided primarily near deserts with sand etc. Therefore it WAS a hygiene issue, all those generations ago, sand, lack of hygiene etc. There is simply no excuse/reason for it now. It’s barbaric.

You did buy into this culture when you married

Yes, and by marrying me, a Christian, I suppose my husband should support stoning and other activities condoned in the bible 🙄

We're not talking about FGM which is quite different.

I don't approve of male circumcision and there was no question of my son ever having it but I accept that some do. I've known loads ofJews and Muslims over the years and never given it a thought.

This is correct. I didn’t buy into- I am part of it but not particularly close to many members of my extended family - in-laws are very close with a large extended family who are very much “involved” - we had about 900 people at the wedding if that puts it into perspective- I agree things only change when people question things from
The inside out - I wanted some alternative views as those I know - even highly educated “modern” types have all had it done - those I know from other communities (where it’s not common practice) do not have the strong views MN seems to in terms of opposition - it’s either they had it or they haven’t. So it’s interesting to see people’s views on it.

I get it, forallyouknow. Well it's something only you can decide. I admit to not liking the idea of a baby or small child being submitted to a procedure to which they have not consented - but I don't live in culture where circumcision is the norm. The only people I've know whose children have had it done (apart from Jews and Muslims and I've never discussed that with them), it has been for medical reasons and the little boys have been fine afterwards.

It is so commonly done in America as to be the norm. I remember seeing an episode of The Simpsons in which Homer delivers a baby boy in a lift. He says, "Ooh uncut, very European".