To get my 3 year old baptised in an attempt to get into a Catholic school

[nestisflown]

AIBU on two levels:

1. to want to baptise my 3 year old and start attending local mass weekly in order to get into one of the best schools in the area (and our closest school, although the next closest secular school is also an excellent one). Is this morally dubious? Or do lots of parents do the same?

1. to think that my transparent plan will work and help my child get a place even though we'll have been attending mass for less than a year by the time applications are made...and the applications want proof of "sustained weekly attendance". It doesnt define sustained though

My reasons for wanting my child to go to Catholic school are: (1.) It is a great school academically; (2) it's our closest school; (3) it's the only good faith school close to us (there's a CofE school but it's doesn't perform well academically), and as a non-Catholic but practising Christian, I'd quite like to see faith incorporated into my child's school day...even in a different denomination.

Has anyone done this? Has anyone succeeded?

We were going to do the same but left it too late.

I'd just say that if you have any religious people in your family/friends that you speak to them. Not to ask permission as such but so they understand what you are doing.

Also, you need to be prepared to support your child if they do decide they are religious. Because you are taking your child to church, you are giving him/her a message and you need to back that up if he/she wants you to.

Derbee but in what way would they be lying? I said I'm happy to attend church regularly and nod and smile.

You will go through the motions but you have no faith.
Loads on here will tell you to go for it as religion is shit anyway your bubba deserves it...
Have you ever thought religious schools are such good schools because the families who attended follow a moral code and live by their faiths teachings?
If DC join who come from a family that have no faith like yours and do not care about the teachings then sooner or later that school will become just like the rest.

I am not religious but I have enough respect to not lie about my faith just to get ahead. I personally find it disgusting to do so.

Breaking the law? What law? It’s a priest confirming attendance 🤣

Not sure that phrase means what you think it means.

@donquixotedelamancha what do you think it means? I just meant I'm a practising Christian but not a Catholic.

In theory Catholic Babtism is open to everyone, however I doubt a Priest would Babtise an older child/toddler of parents that are not Catholic nor have been practicing the faith.

Usually the Priest will ask that one or both parents/carers are Catholic as during the Babtism service, the parents declare that they will bring up their child in the Catholic Faith.

The priest can postpone Baptism if parents are not practicing the Faith, or have no intention of living a Catholic life in harmony with the Gospel.

www.annunciationevv.org/Guidelines-for-Baptism

The admission code has the full force of the law pass. Generally speaking LAs just remove the school place when parents have committed school place fraud, but I think one LA did threaten to start prosecuting parents.

But you’re talking about a. Priest signing an attendance form for parents who haven’t attended aren’t you? Not the parents

Have you ever thought religious schools are such good schools because the families who attended follow a moral code and live by their faiths teachings? If DC join who come from a family that have no faith like yours and do not care about the teachings then sooner or later that school will become just like the rest.

@12PennysPocket

I clearly said in my OP that I'm a practising Christian just not Catholic. And to be frank, I think it's offensive to suggest that people of no faith are less moral than those of faith. Some of the worst people I've met have been Christians, while some of the kindest have been Athiests and agnostics. Besides, morals are completely subjective and deeply rooted in culture.

I think many faith schools are good schools because they are older schools and often have access to more funding through the supporting churches. There are lots of equally excellent secular schools in my area (just not as close as the Catholic one), however, so your opinion doesn't stand from my experience.

what do you think it means?

Someone willing to lie about matters of faith, to a priest and on legal documentation, is not really practicing Christianity.

YABU.

With the caveat that there are always rogue priests/ schools which are exceptions to the norm:

1. One of the parents has to be a Catholic to have a child baptised Catholic, AND the priest has to have a 'reasonable hope' that the child will be brought up as a practising Catholic.

1. Don't take baptism lightly. If your child is baptised Catholic, s/he will be bound to Catholic canon law for life. S/he, and you, may choose to ignore this, and in that case it will have no practical impact on your life in the UK, but it means, for example, that any attempt they make to get married other than in a Catholic ceremony will be regarded as invalid by the Church.

1. Seriously, if you're a practising Christian then you know how important baptism is. It's not some piece of paper you can fake to up your child's chance of a good education, it is literally a matter of life and death. It is incredibly sacred to us, why would you deliberately make a mockery of it?

1. As pp have said, admissions criteria vary by school, so there's no guarantee you'd get the child in anyway. You would need at least 7-9 months of preparation for baptism/ reception into the Church (assuming the other parent isn't already Catholic) at Easter, quite possibly more depending on the parish. It may even be the case that they wouldn't accept you for the adult baptism class (called RCIA) until next year, depending on when they started this year's course. Then your dc wouldn't be baptised until after you, or possibly with you. So the baptism wouldn't happen until Easter 2020 at the very earliest. If the parish is in an area where a lot of people try what you're planning, it's quite common for them to refuse baptism until after the child has started school, to try to weed out some of the fakes.

1. Not that I expect you to care about this, but this is precisely the reason my dc can't get in to a Catholic school despite me working for the Church, taking them to Mass every day, and generally being a committed Catholic family. We're competing with families who couldn't care less about Catholicism, but since their children are baptised, we're all equal for school admissions and we don't live as close as some others so no Catholic education for us. It breaks my heart that my dc can't go to a Catholic school, which was my number 1 priority, and it makes me angry when I teach these parents for baptism preparation and they make absolutely no secret of the fact that they're only there for the school place. Please don't deprive families who desperately want to be able to raise their children in their faith and have a school which shares their values with the chance of that by cheating the system.

OP

You don't care about my opinion.
You don't care that you will lie about yours and your child's faith.
You only care that your child gets in the best and nearest school.

If your bubba gets in you will be back here in a year moaning that the school is teaching things you don't agree with because it goes against what you believe.

Do you live in the South Manchester area by any chance?
Anyway, it is up to you. Put your child first.
It might be worth trying to find out whether there were a lot of births in the area the year your child was born. It is possible that the school could be under subscribed.

OK, I’ll rephrase. The priest is lying in order to aid parents in breaking the law to obtain a school place.

I’m not judging in either case. I just wonder whether people do see the situations differently and judge one more than another.

Most parents will have done the same...
its a high price to pay for education though, the catholic schools i know kids in properly indoctrinate kids...

Breaking the law? What law? It’s a priest confirming attendance

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34014556

First link on Google. Documentary not that long ago on some prosecutions in London.

In answer to the OPs question, I expect many do this, or 'rediscover' their faith, which they lapse from once their youngest child has made their confirmation.

Have you ever thought religious schools are such good schools because the families who attended follow a moral code and live by their faiths teachings?
lol. not from what i’ve seen

That link includes a priest talking about keeping a spreadsheet, but the investigations by the council described are unrelated to religion, instead about people lying about their address maybe first thing that comes up on google often doesn’t prove your point?

Obviously all schools are different and it's not right to generalise but as I'm a bit bitter and twisted... I have to say that IME the combination of feeling themselves to be special as Catholics and also being Ofsted outstanding meant the teachers and governing body were the most arrogant and inflexible people id ever met. DS 1 had HF ASD and they were pretty atrocious with him. I went to a C of E school myself and just remember it as nice hymns and assemblies and termly services at our very beautiful village church. Full on Catholic school for my kids was therefore a bit of a shock. I blame myself for not having gone into it in more detail first. I say to others in my area that if you're Catholic and live nearby then it's a good choice but it definitely isn't worth the extra games of baptism / church attendance/ moving house etc to get into. So if you have a good secular school that's an option I would be tempted to take it. It would be different if the other schools were all really terrible. It has made me fundamentally really anti faith schools now though. My kids are now at a good secular state secondary. I feel a bit sad they now identify as atheists - their bible knowledge has stayed with them though which is quite useful in terms of their cultural heritage.

I think many faith schools are good schools because they [...]often have access to more funding through the supporting churches.

This is exactly right. And you know that funding comes from parishioners, right? Not from some magical pot of 'Church money'. So people like me pay into the Church collection, give more for second collections like Education Sunday, give donations to organisations like the SVP who will help families who can't afford uniform, books etc., support parish school fundraising events ... and you think it's fair that our children miss out on school places to people who have had their child baptised without any desire to actually raise them in the faith and who probably won't darken the doors of a church between getting the school offer and planning for secondary school application (with the possible exception of first communion year)?!

From a practising Catholic with child in Catholic primary.

1. Our child was baptised at 4mths but one of his classmates was baptised with him and she was 10mths which is pretty late but no issues for her in getting into school.
2. Going to mass is sufficient. I think the London Oratory used to stipulate certain criteria for children and parents to be involved in church activities for x number of years. This was challenged and is now no more.
3. In my child’s school, approx 3/4 of his class don’t attend regular mass. It picks up prior to reception entry then decreases for three years. Increases again prior to First Communion. Drops again and picks up just prior to end of October for secondary school applications and will drop again until Confirmation in a few yrs.

Going to mass doesn’t mean you are a good Catholic but only way for priest to judge. I think you’re a hypocrite but not terribly different to the Catholics who are behaving the same way. In any case the outstanding Catholic school my son attends is average. Nothing outstanding about it.

OP YADNBU from a moral and general perspective.

The system is rigged in favour of the religious. You can’t expect ppl to play fair in an unfair system.

On a more specific level, I think you need to be sure this is the right school for you. The variation in catholic schools is huge and some will be very hardcore.

Also, I’d want further clarification around attendance. Any schools I’ve had any dealings with were clear what kind of commitment they were looking for. I wouldn’t be attending every week without more certainty.

The school our son went to required at least one parent to be a baptised and confirmed catholic. Both I and my husband were. This is to prevent people doing what you're suggesting.

Then I remembered what my Catholic school days were like-my son started asking about his sins at tea time and after half a year we took him out. I couldn't do it. Even I as a catholic couldn't take it and felt like a hypocrite for inviting this into our home for the sake of a good education.

Beware also of staff recruitment policy: Catholics employed over non-Catholics. IME the majority of the TAs were mums from the congregation, some of them barely literate. Governors were ex-teachers - all Catholic. Visiting school nurse was Catholic. Bloody Catholic mafia.

Note for faith schools, they get 10% less funding than secular schools so parents/diocese etc need to make up shortfall!!! They certainly don’t get more!